IFR in motorglider?

Question:

Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally
fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a
current medical?

Thanks!

Chuck

cp wrote:
Question:

Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally
fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a
current medical?

Oh, this is a good one :-). I suspect that your certificate reads
"instrument, airplane" but, a motor glider is not an airplane, as far as
the FAA is concerned.

Tony V.

Tony Verhulst wrote in message ...
cp wrote:
Question:

Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally
fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a
current medical?

Oh, this is a good one :-). I suspect that your certificate reads
"instrument, airplane" but, a motor glider is not an airplane, as far as
the FAA is concerned.

Tony V.

An instrument airplane rating is required to operate IFR in a glider.

Currency requirements as defined in

Section 61.57: Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions--
(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1\1/2\
hours may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are
to be carried; or
(ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger
is to be carried.


Note that being intrument current in airplanes does not assure
instrument currency in gliders.


Andy

The problem is getting the 1.5 hours (of the 3 required) in the glider to
get current. Since you are single seat, you cannot legally do simulated
instrument. That means getting in the appropriately equipped 2-seater to get
legally current.

The original poster had a motorglider. Should that be a two seater, the
challenges get smaller.

Paul

"Andy Durbin" wrote in message
om...
Tony Verhulst wrote in message
...
cp wrote:
Question:

Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally
fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a
current medical?

Oh, this is a good one :-). I suspect that your certificate reads
"instrument, airplane" but, a motor glider is not an airplane, as far as
the FAA is concerned.

Tony V.

An instrument airplane rating is required to operate IFR in a glider.

Currency requirements as defined in

Section 61.57: Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

(2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions--
(i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1\1/2\
hours may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are
to be carried; or
(ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger
is to be carried.


Note that being intrument current in airplanes does not assure
instrument currency in gliders.


Andy

"Paul Lynch" wrote in message news:utBEc.8566$mN3.7647@lakeread06...
The problem is getting the 1.5 hours (of the 3 required) in the glider to
get current. Since you are single seat, you cannot legally do simulated
instrument. That means getting in the appropriately equipped 2-seater to get
legally current.

The original poster had a motorglider. Should that be a two seater, the
challenges get smaller.

Paul


Actually, the regulation imposes no requirement to do any of the 3
hours of instrument flight in a glider unless passengers are to be
carried. It just says 1.5 hours *may* be done in a glider.

The real problem may be keeping up 3 hours of instrument flight for
every six months following an IPC or initial issuance of the
instrument rating. For those not familiar with instrument currency
requirements – the 6-month currency must be maintained, once it
is lost it can only regained by taking an Instrument Proficiency
Check. You cannot *get* current by flying 3 hours in 6 months, you
can only maintain existing currency.

Note that the IPC to qualify for glider IFR may be done in a glider or
an airplane. So one possible scenario is that the airplane instrument
pilot takes an IPC in an airplane then, in addition to the 6
approaches with holding etc required every 6 months to keep airplane
instrument current, the pilot also ensures that he flies 3 hours of
instrument time in the same 6 months. That keeps the pilot legally
current for airplane and glider IFR without flying a glider at all so
long as passengers are not carried.

The other way would be to do an IPC in a 2-place glider. Since the
Instrument PTS does not apply to gliders, the instructor could choose
what tasks had to be performed. All you need then is an instrument
instructor who is glider rated and a suitable glider. Following the
glider IPC you then need to maintain the 3 hours instrument flight
every 6 months, or get the 3 hours in the next 6 months, or to go and
get another IPC.


Andy

Actually the those were the old regulations. With the rewrite of FAR
61 a few years ago they dropped the hour requirment to stay current.
Now all that is required is 6 Approaches and entering a holding
pattern every 6 months.


As it has had been before if you let this expire you have an
additional 6 months to perform these approaches and holding to become
current again. If however you go for more that 12 months without
becoming current you will have to take an instrument proficency check
with a CFII.

Your are correct that currency in an airplane will transfer to glider.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL



Actually, the regulation imposes no requirement to do any of the 3
hours of instrument flight in a glider unless passengers are to be
carried. It just says 1.5 hours *may* be done in a glider.

The real problem may be keeping up 3 hours of instrument flight for
every six months following an IPC or initial issuance of the
instrument rating. For those not familiar with instrument currency
requirements – the 6-month currency must be maintained, once it
is lost it can only regained by taking an Instrument Proficiency
Check. You cannot *get* current by flying 3 hours in 6 months, you
can only maintain existing currency.

Note that the IPC to qualify for glider IFR may be done in a glider or
an airplane. So one possible scenario is that the airplane instrument
pilot takes an IPC in an airplane then, in addition to the 6
approaches with holding etc required every 6 months to keep airplane
instrument current, the pilot also ensures that he flies 3 hours of
instrument time in the same 6 months. That keeps the pilot legally
current for airplane and glider IFR without flying a glider at all so
long as passengers are not carried.

The other way would be to do an IPC in a 2-place glider. Since the
Instrument PTS does not apply to gliders, the instructor could choose
what tasks had to be performed. All you need then is an instrument
instructor who is glider rated and a suitable glider. Following the
glider IPC you then need to maintain the 3 hours instrument flight
every 6 months, or get the 3 hours in the next 6 months, or to go and
get another IPC.


Andy

On 6/29/04 2:37 PM, in article
, "cp"
wrote:

Question:

Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally
fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a
current medical?

Thanks!

Chuck
Good one! I would guess that the answer is yes provided the glider is
current re VOR, transponder and altimeter checks, and you have met the
instrument experience and competency requirements of 61.57.

Bob
CFI, CFII, CFIG

--
Bob
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom --fix this before responding

In the USA:

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or



Furthermo

(c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft.

(2) A person is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (c)(1) of this section if that person --

(iii) Is holding a pilot certificate or a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating, and is piloting or providing training in a glider, as appropriate;



It seems the answer from these two sections is
yes, as far as they go. Others have pointed out
that IFR currency and equipment requirements go beyond this.
As far as this goes, I'd guess strongly that an IPC to
get current is a good way to go. Sure one could get current
in a two seater with foggles and a safety pilot, or
maybe fly 3 hours of glider actual IFR solo every 6 months,
but in the US I'd guess the IPC would often be simpler and more
effective at meeting the reg's intention.

As far as equipment goes, there are a lot of misconceptions about
what is "required." Back during the ATC controller
strike (remember Reagan?) nobody used a transponder for anything,
just time slots and phone calls. Even in modern times
in A,B,C,D,E airspace, I personally have flown no-transponder
both VFR and IFR, with a waiver one hour before hand.

And in "G" airspace, there is no radio requirement
for IFR even, as far as I've ever seen. In
area with no altimeter setting information (the
mountains in Reno, California, for example, right Al?
the G airspace can go quite high.

I've also gotten a "cube" of area and altitude to fool around in the
clouds, in airplanes, before. Always out of the way
of other IFR traffic, and coordinated ahead of the flight,
and done to practice 180 turns from clouds in actual IFR with
students. No danger either, since the
clouds were only 2000-6000, and out away from
airways and approaches. ATC didn't care as long as there was no
possibility of traffic conflict, and we uttered those
magic words "we will maintain our own terrain
separation."

And as far as AI and DG, etc. go, my FAA examiner pointed out
that the instruments are for powered aircraft.
The POH is the limiting document for gliders
for flight instruments required for IFR as far as
I can tell (except that durned DME way up there in the FLs).
I must say, however, I've done the "needle, ball, and
airspeed" in gliders and planes in actual and
simulated, and it's some sketchy s**t if you
don't have recent practice.

But all of this is armchair wisdom (?) from me.
Carl Herold could write a book on this. We've
seen this subject enough on RAS maybe we oughta
all call him and ask him if he'd write something
up for Soaring mag... Horse's mouth is best, dontcha know...

In article ,
Bob Greenblatt wrote:
On 6/29/04 2:37 PM, in article
, "cp"
wrote:

Question:

Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally
fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a
current medical?

Thanks!

Chuck
Good one! I would guess that the answer is yes provided the glider is
current re VOR, transponder and altimeter checks, and you have met the
instrument experience and competency requirements of 61.57.

Bob
CFI, CFII, CFIG

--
Bob
bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom --fix this before responding




--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Interesting.

14 CFR 61-3(e) takes care of the pilot but the original question pertained
to motor gliders.

AC 21 17-2(a) states:
h. Section 91.205 of the FAR. Powered gliders are considered to be powered
aircraft for the
purpose of complying with § 91.205.

91.205, of course, specifies the requirements for flying IFR.

A distinction must be made between flying IFR and flying in clouds.

While I doubt any motor glider can meet the requirements for flying IFR (and
no unpowered glider can), flying in clouds in uncontrolled airspace seems to
be a simple matter of having an instrument rating and having no day VFR
restrictions in your glider handbook or operating restrictions.

In uncontrolled airspace, you can do just about anything you want, if
properly certificated. The problem is finding uncontrolled airspace.

Allan


"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:40e9c2ea$1@darkstar...
In the USA:

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an
airplane instrument rating; or


.......Snip.....

ADP wrote:
Interesting.

While I doubt any motor glider can meet the requirements for flying IFR (and
no unpowered glider can),


Goodness no. I believe unpowered gliders can and have
flown in controlled airspace, and under IFR, and quite recently and
legally in the USA. There was a recent high-altitude downwind dash
in wave over the Sierras by a savy, experienced ATP that did just
this, IIRC. Somebody who doesn't have to rush home
for dinner like I must can perhaps chime in here...


flying in clouds in uncontrolled airspace seems to
be a simple matter of having an instrument rating and having no day VFR
restrictions in your glider handbook or operating restrictions.


Goodness, yes. Carl Herold by secondhand info seems
to have 300 hrs + glider IMC this way. But again, I may
be deifying him rather than stating fact...best to
get his input directly I suspect...


Although a bit rare, none of this seems outside of the
realm of legality. Certainly very risky if one
chooses needle, ball, airspeed alone without
much recent experience this way, but
not illegal with certain caveats.

Personally I'd SURE want an AI too...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA