Logging Simulator Time

I just had my first opportunity to log some approaches in a simulator and that
brought up questions about how to log the time. The Frasca 141 was set up to
mimic a Cessna 172. My questions a

1) Does this time get logged as Airplane SEL along with also being logged as a
Synthetic Trainer?

2) Do I log the time as "Day" since technically it was daytime outside the
building? (I'm assuming that I still want my Day hours + Night hours = Total
hours, so it has to be one or the other)

There was some confusion over this at the FBO and I figured I'd compound that
by looking for some answers here :-)

Eric Bartsch

Bartscher wrote:
I just had my first opportunity to log some approaches in a simulator and
that
brought up questions about how to log the time. The Frasca 141 was set up
to
mimic a Cessna 172. My questions a

1) Does this time get logged as Airplane SEL along with also being logged
as a
Synthetic Trainer?

2) Do I log the time as "Day" since technically it was daytime outside the
building? (I'm assuming that I still want my Day hours + Night hours =
Total
hours, so it has to be one or the other)

There was some confusion over this at the FBO and I figured I'd compound
that
by looking for some answers here :-)

This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual
instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc...

This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an
instructor with you.

Hilton

This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual
instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc...

This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an
instructor with you.

Hilton


I think I'll stand behind my comment about compounding my confusion by looking
to the internet for answers. To clarify my posting, I did have a qualified CFII
with me for the sim flight.

If I read FAR 61.51 right, I CAN log as Total Time (see 61.51 b-2-v) I CAN log
simulated instrument (see 61.51 b-3-iii). Also, 61.51 g-4 looks like it
confirms that simulated instrument can be logged in the sim if as you said, an
authorized instructor is present.

What is unclear is are the answers to my two original questions:

1) Does the sim time also get logged as ASEL? (61.51 b-1-iv implies to me that
I would log it as ASEL since the sim was set up as a single engine aircraft. I
would also log it as a simulator of course.)

2) Do I log anything in the day or night columns? (61.51 b-3 is unclear on this
because paragraphs i,ii,and iii are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise you
couldn't log both day and instrument.)

I'd appreciate anyone who can reference an FAR or a section of the AIM that
spells this out more clearly than what I've already found.

Thanks,
Eric Bartsch

(Bartscher) wrote in
:

I just had my first opportunity to log some approaches in a simulator
and that brought up questions about how to log the time. The Frasca
141 was set up to mimic a Cessna 172. My questions a

1) Does this time get logged as Airplane SEL along with also being
logged as a Synthetic Trainer?

2) Do I log the time as "Day" since technically it was daytime outside
the building? (I'm assuming that I still want my Day hours + Night
hours = Total hours, so it has to be one or the other)

There was some confusion over this at the FBO and I figured I'd
compound that by looking for some answers here :-)

Eric Bartsch


It should be logged as ground trainer time, not as flight time. Since it
was not flight time, obviously the flight conditions are irrelevant (day,
night, imc...). Also, it should not be added to the total flight time
column (usually the last column).

The device you were in was in all likelihood not considered a simulator,
but rather a flight training device. Whats the difference? A LOT of
money and probably the presence of multi-axis motion. I should think
that the time in such a Flight Training Device would be loggable as
simulated instrument, and as instrument instruction, but not towards
day/night/specific type/category/class. The devices that the boys at
Continental, Delta, Flight Safety, etc use are true Simulators, and the
time in those devices is loggable as aircraft time if I have been told
correctly. The tabletop and non-motion devices are NOT simulators, but
flight training devices. The owner of one flight school I used to train
at was quite ****ed when he discovered that the 10,000 "Aerosim" PCATD
that he bought was only legally logabble for 10 hours of primary/initial
instrument instruction and was not able to be used for up to 20 hours
(as a sim), nor for proficiency . He wrongly thought he had bought a
"simulator". Unless your device meets the true definition of a
simulator, you may not be able to log it as "flight time"

There are certain AC's that clarify the issue, and while people say the
AC's are non-regulatory, they DO specify a means of acceptable
compliance with published rules. Not following the AC's puts the burden
on YOU to prove to the FAA that what you are doing is acceptable.

Dave

Bartscher wrote:
This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual
instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc...

This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an
instructor with you.

Hilton



I think I'll stand behind my comment about compounding my confusion by looking
to the internet for answers. To clarify my posting, I did have a qualified CFII
with me for the sim flight.

If I read FAR 61.51 right, I CAN log as Total Time (see 61.51 b-2-v) I CAN log
simulated instrument (see 61.51 b-3-iii). Also, 61.51 g-4 looks like it
confirms that simulated instrument can be logged in the sim if as you said, an
authorized instructor is present.

What is unclear is are the answers to my two original questions:

1) Does the sim time also get logged as ASEL? (61.51 b-1-iv implies to me that
I would log it as ASEL since the sim was set up as a single engine aircraft. I
would also log it as a simulator of course.)

2) Do I log anything in the day or night columns? (61.51 b-3 is unclear on this
because paragraphs i,ii,and iii are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise you
couldn't log both day and instrument.)

I'd appreciate anyone who can reference an FAR or a section of the AIM that
spells this out more clearly than what I've already found.

Thanks,
Eric Bartsch

it should not be added to the total flight time column (usually the
last column).

Based on what?

The FARs don't define "Total Time", so you can put what you like
there.

I consider the closest thing to "Total Time" is "Pilot Time", and FTD
time counts as that.

If your log distinguishes between Total Time and Total Flight Time, log the
time as Total Time...but don't mix it in with flight time. As the FAA
Aviation News once said in response to a similar question, "The extension
cord isn't long enough." I have a certain amount of familiarity with this
question, since I operated an AST-300 business across the street from the
Seattle FSDO and had many, many FAA inspectors as customers (on the
taxpayer's dime, of course). I also had a letter from the FSDO laying out
exactly what the AST-300 could be used for...does the box you used have
similar authentication?

Bob Gardner

"Bartscher" wrote in message
...
This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual
instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc...

This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had
an
instructor with you.

Hilton


I think I'll stand behind my comment about compounding my confusion by
looking
to the internet for answers. To clarify my posting, I did have a qualified
CFII
with me for the sim flight.

If I read FAR 61.51 right, I CAN log as Total Time (see 61.51 b-2-v) I CAN
log
simulated instrument (see 61.51 b-3-iii). Also, 61.51 g-4 looks like it
confirms that simulated instrument can be logged in the sim if as you
said, an
authorized instructor is present.

What is unclear is are the answers to my two original questions:

1) Does the sim time also get logged as ASEL? (61.51 b-1-iv implies to me
that
I would log it as ASEL since the sim was set up as a single engine
aircraft. I
would also log it as a simulator of course.)

2) Do I log anything in the day or night columns? (61.51 b-3 is unclear on
this
because paragraphs i,ii,and iii are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise you
couldn't log both day and instrument.)

I'd appreciate anyone who can reference an FAR or a section of the AIM
that
spells this out more clearly than what I've already found.

Thanks,
Eric Bartsch

I also had a letter from the FSDO laying out
exactly what the AST-300 could be used for...does the box you used have
similar authentication?

Bob Gardner

Well, the Frasca web site was only partially useful here. They did a good job
of reviewing what parts of what ratings the 141 can be used for, but they don't
say much about how to log it.

http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/info...n/logtime2.htm

http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/brochures/141bro.htm

They also managed to call it both a simulator and a flight training device on
the same page (not helpful). They do claim the following: "FAA approved under
14 CFR parts 61 and 141. Guaranteed FAA Level 2 or 3 qualification We not only
build these devices to AC120-45A Level 2 or 3 standards, but we can also
guarantee that they can be qualified in conjunction with the National Simulator
Program Managers office in Atlanta". Of course I'm not quite sure what that
means.

Sounds like it is Simulated Instrument but maybe not Total Flight Time (which
seems odd, not that it has to make sense). Also, the consensus appears to be
that it was neither day or night (which does make sense since there wasn't a
visual system)

Thanks,
Eric Bartsch

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...


day/night/specific type/category/class. The devices that the boys at
Continental, Delta, Flight Safety, etc use are true Simulators, and the

Flight Safety and Simcom (and Flight Level Aviation) use Flight Training
Devices as well for piston flight training.

Flight Safety and Simcom do not use true "simulators" until they get to
turboprops or jets.

However, a Flight Training Device can have multi-axis motion just like a
simulator.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"FAA approved" misleads a lot of people. It means that someone at FAA HQ has
evaluated the box and decided that it has training value. Each individual
location, however, has to be checked out by the local FSDO and a letter of
authorization issued. The FSDO came into my place with a 30-page checklist,
looking into such things as VOR sensitivity, accuracy of the turn-and-bank,
aerodynamic responses, etc. They flew the AST-300 for most of a day before
conferring their blessing on it. The fact that the box had been "approved"
by HQ meant nothing.

Bob Gardner

"Bartscher" wrote in message
...
I also had a letter from the FSDO laying out
exactly what the AST-300 could be used for...does the box you used have
similar authentication?

Bob Gardner

Well, the Frasca web site was only partially useful here. They did a good
job
of reviewing what parts of what ratings the 141 can be used for, but they
don't
say much about how to log it.

http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/info...n/logtime2.htm

http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/brochures/141bro.htm

They also managed to call it both a simulator and a flight training device
on
the same page (not helpful). They do claim the following: "FAA approved
under
14 CFR parts 61 and 141. Guaranteed FAA Level 2 or 3 qualification We not
only
build these devices to AC120-45A Level 2 or 3 standards, but we can also
guarantee that they can be qualified in conjunction with the National
Simulator
Program Managers office in Atlanta". Of course I'm not quite sure what
that
means.

Sounds like it is Simulated Instrument but maybe not Total Flight Time
(which
seems odd, not that it has to make sense). Also, the consensus appears to
be
that it was neither day or night (which does make sense since there wasn't
a
visual system)

Thanks,
Eric Bartsch