Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.

On 11 Jul 2004 18:15:45 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:


Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.

Arthur Kramer

And, the distinction is????

There seem to be a number of fighter aviators around here who have a
lot of missions. And even dropped a lot of bombs. P-47s dropped a lot
of bombs as did F4Us, were they flying sorties or missions? Did I not
really fly missions?

Is a mission better than a sortie? Can you not die on a sortie or does
it have to be a mission? Do Mormons go on sorties?

Methinks I hear the elephants rumbling forward as we tromp upon the
**** ants.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
month
deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.


Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
that
many.



Arthur Kramer


There were a few tiems when the gear and flaps were still retracting as you
were entering into the dive bomb pattern. Or at least it seemed that way. I
had one sortie where we had to recover and rearm 20 min after TO from DaNang.
Average sortie length was probably 2.5 hours or so. Don't forget we got to
work a little faster than you did so there was more opportunity to fly more
missions. Paul Had a total of around 30 months in SEA as opposed to my 20.

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/11/2004 11:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

On 11 Jul 2004 18:15:45 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:


Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.

Arthur Kramer

And, the distinction is????

There seem to be a number of fighter aviators around here who have a
lot of missions. And even dropped a lot of bombs. P-47s dropped a lot
of bombs as did F4Us, were they flying sorties or missions? Did I not
really fly missions?

Is a mission better than a sortie? Can you not die on a sortie or does
it have to be a mission? Do Mormons go on sorties?

Methinks I hear the elephants rumbling forward as we tromp upon the
**** ants.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8


Nothing I ever flew was called a sorie, They were all called missions. Every
fighter pilot I met in the ETO talked about his sorties. I leave the **** ants
to you.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 12:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
month
deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.


Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
that
many.



Arthur Kramer


There were a few tiems when the gear and flaps were still retracting as you
were entering into the dive bomb pattern. Or at least it seemed that way. I
had one sortie where we had to recover and rearm 20 min after TO from DaNang.

Average sortie length was probably 2.5 hours or so. Don't forget we got to
work a little faster than you did so there was more opportunity to fly more
missions. Paul Had a total of around 30 months in SEA as opposed to my 20.


Reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge. We were opening our bomb bay doors as
our wheels came up.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties

I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 12:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties

I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.



What's a Linebacker?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.

Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
month
deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.


Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
that
many.

One of the more impressive gentlemen I ever met was Max Mortensen. He served
with one of the B-25 groups in the Pacific during WW2--served is putting it
mildly. He joined it as a 2nd Lt. and stayed with the unit through 26 months
of continuous combat, flying iirc some 110 combat missions and rising to the
rank of Lt. Col. He survived everything the enemy could throw at him,
including a direct flak hit in the bomb bay while over Rabaul, which ignited
the WP bomblets, finally being shot down while attacking a frigate, near Hainan
Island iirc during the closing days of the war, captured by the Japanese,
starved and tortured (one of the thee crewmen who survived the ditching died
under the torture). He was rescued by an OSS team led by John Singlaub, the
same Singlaub who, as commander of UN forces in Korea was fired by Pres. Carter
in a pretty messy incident.
You may know Mortensen. He was the last commander of the former 344th (by
then renamed something else) when it was based in France in the early 1950s and
flying Douglas B-26s (nee A-26).


Chris Mark

Whats pack 6 and pack 1? Was it anything like the Ruhr Valley? (:-)

Roughly translated, areas that North Viet Nam was divided into for routing and
targeting purposes. Route Package 1 was the far south of NVN in the panhandle
and Route Package was basically the Hanoi area. I've been told that Pack 6
was the most heavily defended area in history prior to downtown Baghdad in
Desert Storm but I have no basis for comparison. All I can tell you is that on
a clear day, Hanoi was clear as a bell if you were the first flight in and
hazier than downtown LA in the summer from groundfire if you were the last.

"ArtKramr" wrote

Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.

Fighter pilots probably speak French better...

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 7/11/2004 2:20 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0500, "D. Strang"
wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the
war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell
you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing
before,
or after the war.


Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."



Amen, Ed. I was scared (a lot) but never admitted it either..