Motorglider and Towered Airport

They can't refuse you the use of the runway and taxiways. But can't
they refuse you road access to the airport, or the use of the apron for
assembly?

Sounds like a good question for the legal gurus at the SSA or AOPA. I'll ask.

Mark

They can't refuse you the use of the runway and taxiways. But can't
they refuse you road access to the airport, or the use of the apron for
assembly?

Hmmm...dunno about that one. But I just thought of a few more
things:

You can see if it's ok to land and takeoff from a taxiway.
Perhaps a little unlikely but an option.

You can arrange to land long. Min separation is 3000 ft between
aircraft, so really four SMALL aircraft can land at once on a
10,000 foot runway if the first one only uses 1000 feet.
If you can demonstrate you will land using only the last 1000
feet, that might alleviate problems. Also, landing right at the
high-speed point and immediately taxiing off would be
real cool (assuming taxiway lights are no problem).

Just a few more thoughts to throw into the
options...

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:3ffc643c$1@darkstar...
Steve B wrote:
Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life
easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe.


Steve,

If you are Steven Perry Barnes, the FAA says you also have an
ASEL license. Hmmm...so there may be some other options.

Just brainstorming, mind you, but perhaps you can recertify your
motorglider as an airplane? Then it's just an experimental airplane...

Nice try... certificate of air worthiness is classified as glider
(not experimental or airplane)



Also, if you fly out of there once in a regular plane, and show
how professionally you handle everything, when the controllers hear
your voice again they'll know you aren't some yahoo gonna
mess up their sequencing.

I fly my Mooney there as well


From the Airnav picture, it looks like Kona has at least one
high speed taxiway for you to get off. So that is very good.

I am impressed with your attention to detail... I like the high speed
taxiway as well for runway 17

I suppose the next issue is how to taxi.
If the glider can be taxied without a wingrunner, fine. If not
maybe Century Aviation or Tropicbird or Hawaii flight
academy, etc. can help you with a golf cart, a teenagers with a
reflective vest, and a short rope to taxi you away.

Taxi is no problem with the tail wheel steering and wing tip wheels...
taxi ways are ample and the runway is 150 ft wide.


If it were me, I'd get a reflective vest for myself and the line boy,
go out and scout the taxi obstructions with the fire department,
arrange for a golf cart and rope, and pick a time with little
traffic. I'd also check in with the local flight schools and
tell them a plan and ask for input. They are likely to be
the biggest complainers or best allies.

I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller
and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid.

Sounds subjective to me. Am I to assume that you would want to
discriminate against aeronautical activity? So am I also to assume
that you would not allow other light aircraft as well. Would that be
legal?

By recollection, the taxiway and runway are so close together too
that I don't know if you could even safely taxi a glider
without wake turbulence being a factor in some areas.

This glider ASH 26-e is a fairly heavy machine... 1100 lbs ready to
go. I would expect it to handle similar to a J3 cub or a Cessna 150
regarding jet blast.

And with
the huge optempo (761 ops/day), taxi and landings and takeoffs are
quite challenging to order.

At 329 operations a day, Kona seems pretty packed too. Requesting
a taxiway for takeoff which ISN'T the one everyone else uses seems
a good idea, and using the high speed taxi off after landing should
minimize the grief about cluttering the active.

There is an ultra light that uses the taxi way for take off and
landing, as well as Helicopters... it is a bit tight for the 60 ft
wing span to be landing on it.


Taxiing the
glider in a safe and efficient way is something else entirely...

Taxi should be no problem


Maybe try the whole thing simulated in a power plane first? A
little rehearsal dance for the golf cart and driver, and the
controller, and you?

I am moving in the direction of submitting a proposal for the opertion
of the motorglider to the parties involved in the decision making
process.


Just some thoughts...hope they help with creative solutions...

Lateral thinking... good stuff!

Thanks
Steve B.

snipGet friendly with
the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and
report back to superiors. end snip

FSDO folks are starting to help get the ball rolling... at this point
they have been helpful with putting together a proposal to the "powers
that be" to gradualy move in the direction of being allowed to
demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft in regards to safe and
effecient operation and traffic mix.

SnipIt's just
another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about
gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them
altogether and the problem goes away.

Don't have the T Shirt yet but I am "being there" and "doing that"
sounds like you have been there done that.

Thanks
Steve





(MKEENE221) wrote in message ...
Steve,

This probably won't make much difference to your airport manager, but I once
flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas Love Field. And I know
of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport on a fairly regular
basis.

It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter what the type or class.
There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask permission. To ATC, there's
little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox or a J3 Cub, and I'm
sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the same hoops. It's just
another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about
gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them
altogether and the problem goes away.

That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play by the rules that
everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to the traffic flow just like
there's nothing special.

Some specific examples include the following. Know the ATC lingo and use it in
a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay as close behind other
traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile behind a C172 because of
propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners, you can refuse takeoff
clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable. Be ready to go when
you're number one, and request an immediate turnout to allow another aircraft
to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before you land. After
landing, clear the runway ASAP.

All that considered, my advise would be to show up unannounced and fly. The
fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn, is to give them
experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly out. Get friendly with
the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and
report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral witness, your case can be
strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding.

One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the
airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away.
As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse
you. If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way
to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to.

Mark Keene

Mark (and others) are 100% right on this one. You
do not need to ask permission. In fact, doing so sets
a bad precedent. In dealing with FAA or airport management,
remind them (tactfully) that the burden of proof is
on them. In other words, if they can't show you regulations
prohibiting an activity, then they must allow it.
Understand that they probably don't know the regs as
well as you do.

Recognizing that the tower probably has never dealt
with a motorglider, in the interest of safety, a brief
letter describing your intentions, limitations and
expectations might smooth things a bit.

You are a registered aircraft wishing to use a public
airport. Send a letter, show up and fly. If you catch
any flak from airport management or FAA, ask them to
put it in writing. Carry a small tape recorder with
you. I've found these two practices quickly knock
the wind out of most overzealous bureaucrats. Be polite,
but if the tower continues to give you trouble, ask
them to put a supervisor on the radio.

As for wake turbulence, and taxiing around with the
big boys, I doubt you are any more at risk than a small
Cessna or Katana. Stay back 200' or so, and accept
a wake turbulence delay on takeoff.

If you are barred from entering the airport, contact
your state aviation department and your congressman.
You'd be amazed how quickly they can sway the system
to your side.



At 09:06 08 January 2004, Steve B wrote:
Get friendly with
the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your
arrival and departure, and
report back to superiors.

FSDO folks are starting to help get the ball rolling...
at this point
they have been helpful with putting together a proposal
to the 'powers
that be' to gradualy move in the direction of being
allowed to
demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft in regards
to safe and
effecient operation and traffic mix.

SnipIt's just
another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't
know anything about
gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn.
Just ban them
altogether and the problem goes away.

Don't have the T Shirt yet but I am 'being there' and
'doing that'
sounds like you have been there done that.

Thanks
Steve





(MKEENE221) wrote in message news:...
Steve,

This probably won't make much difference to your airport
manager, but I once
flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas
Love Field. And I know
of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport
on a fairly regular
basis.

It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter
what the type or class.
There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask
permission. To ATC, there's
little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox
or a J3 Cub, and I'm
sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the
same hoops. It's just
another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't
know anything about
gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn.
Just ban them
altogether and the problem goes away.

That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play
by the rules that
everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to
the traffic flow just like
there's nothing special.

Some specific examples include the following. Know
the ATC lingo and use it in
a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay
as close behind other
traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile
behind a C172 because of
propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners,
you can refuse takeoff
clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable.
Be ready to go when
you're number one, and request an immediate turnout
to allow another aircraft
to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before
you land. After
landing, clear the runway ASAP.

All that considered, my advise would be to show up
unannounced and fly. The
fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn,
is to give them
experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly
out. Get friendly with
the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your
arrival and departure, and
report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral
witness, your case can be
strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding.

One more point, Federal law is in force here, not
state law. Remember that the
airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate
you into going away.
As was said in a previous post, if they take federal
funds, they can't refuse
you. If they threaten you with something, ask them
in a polite and humble way
to show you where to find the reg that they're referring
to.

Mark Keene

Bob C wrote:
Carry a small tape recorder with
you. I've found these two practices quickly knock
the wind out of most overzealous bureaucrats.

I like this!

Be polite,
but if the tower continues to give you trouble, ask
them to put a supervisor on the radio.

No! You get his telephone number and call him. A busy airport has no
radio bandwidth for this kind of transaction - and is standard
procedure. If you spend any time at a busy field you see some pilot
really screw up and the next thing you'll hear is the tower issueing a
telephone number for the pilot to call after landing.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

Steve B wrote:
(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:3ffc643c$1@darkstar...

Taxi is no problem with the tail wheel steering and wing tip wheels...
taxi ways are ample and the runway is 150 ft wide.

Excellent. That's a huge problem solved.

I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller
and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid.

Sounds subjective to me. Am I to assume that you would want to
discriminate against aeronautical activity? So am I also to assume
that you would not allow other light aircraft as well. Would that be
legal?

Some airports have done just that. San Jose International
shoved out the little guys with it's $50 ramp fee, and SFO and
LAX do the same. I've heard rumblings of Santa Monica
doing the same (fees for deplaning). Number of operations a day
and revenue from those operations are a big motivator. Whether
one is legally allowed to do something sometimes takes a back seat.
I was really just trying to give some insight into the thoughts
behind these attitudes, I don't endorse the prejudice or give in
to it, just recognise the source and try to play along...

This glider ASH 26-e is a fairly heavy machine... 1100 lbs ready to
go. I would expect it to handle similar to a J3 cub or a Cessna 150
regarding jet blast.

also excellent...


There is an ultra light that uses the taxi way for take off and
landing, as well as Helicopters... it is a bit tight for the 60 ft
wing span to be landing on it.


it's starting to look like you'll have more options than many
on this group (including me) originally assumed...

I am moving in the direction of submitting a proposal for the opertion
of the motorglider to the parties involved in the decision making
process.

Using lesser used taxiways right before takeoff, landing long,
using high speed taxiways for landing, and taxiing efficiently
sound like a great help. The fact you are very familiar from your Mooney
experience also suggests you have this well thought out and
should be an excellent airport neighbor. Good for you!!


Lateral thinking... good stuff!

Thanks
Steve B.

Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message . com...
Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA

Also has the highest consumption of Spam per capita in America but Honolulu
is rated by Men's Health magazine as the leanest city in America.


"Steve B" wrote in message
om...
Tom... thanks for your suggestion.

Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a
presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out
of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a
hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will
need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the
curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay
the dragon (airport manager) with.

I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans /
motorgliders are able to any of the following:

Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines

Operate on Airports that have a Tower

Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway

A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing
with the air traffic and taxi operations.


This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot
first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states
for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and
Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the
ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be
cleared.

Mahalo
Steve Barnes



(Tom Seim) wrote in message
. com...
Steve,

DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO
DO!
Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system.

Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your
rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk
it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you
that they dream up on the spot.

I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without
problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out
of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard
radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use
the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under
power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other
A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then,
generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you
have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the
controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts
controller's atitudes).

This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with
my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have
an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you
hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their
job.

Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't
know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know
this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate.

Tom Seim
DG-400
Richland, WA