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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 22nd 08, 05:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 2,892
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:



"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
.. .
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.


Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.


Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.


--
Jim Pennino

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  #12  
Old June 22nd 08, 06:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Frank Olson
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Posts: 90
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:


"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.


Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.




Actually, the cost of replacing the battery packs (after five years)
will run around $5000.00. That's $1000.00 a year plus the cost for
multiple recharges @$.60 per charge... If you put 100 hours on the old
"Hobbs" every year that's the equivalent of paying about $10.30 an hour
for fuel... What's a gallon of 100/130 down your way?? Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life. The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.
When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts". What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)... So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)
  #13  
Old June 22nd 08, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

Frank Olson wrote:
wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:


"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.


Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.




Actually, the cost of replacing the battery packs (after five years)
will run around $5000.00.


Since car packs are $3k to $5k, what makes you think an airplane rated
pack will be the same price?


That's $1000.00 a year plus the cost for
multiple recharges @$.60 per charge... If you put 100 hours on the old
"Hobbs" every year that's the equivalent of paying about $10.30 an hour
for fuel... What's a gallon of 100/130 down your way??


Except you pay for fuel on a continuous basis over time.

You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.

Oh, sure, you could take out a loan and spread the payments over 5 years,
but now you've added interest on the loan to the cost of the batteries.

Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life.


Irrelevant.

Composite props already exist and are already used on conventional
gas engines.

The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.


Nonsense, an electric motor has a life limit. It may turn out to be
longer than a gas engine, but that is unknown at this time.

When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts".


Do you pay no attention to what you write?

You were talking about FBO's and having swap out battery packs to keep
the airplanes in the air.

So it isn't A $5000 battery pack, it is 3 or 4 $5000 battery packs.

What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)...


And using a trickle charger means you need even more battery packs at
$5000 per copy to keep the airplanes flying.

So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)


Yikes!!! indeed.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #15  
Old June 23rd 08, 02:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dave[_5_]
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Posts: 186
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Jun 22, 2:35*pm, wrote:

You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.



I read somewhere that the companies that are working on battery packs
for "Pluggable Hybrid" cars are considering leasing them. Perhaps that
will be an option for aviation batteries as well (if and when they
become available).

Dave
  #16  
Old June 23rd 08, 02:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

Dave wrote:
On Jun 22, 2:35?pm, wrote:


You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.



I read somewhere that the companies that are working on battery packs
for "Pluggable Hybrid" cars are considering leasing them. Perhaps that
will be an option for aviation batteries as well (if and when they
become available).


It would be a smart move.

The average family would have a better chance of coming up the the
$100 or so a month than the would the whole $5k in one lump.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #17  
Old June 23rd 08, 04:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Frank Olson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

wrote:
Frank Olson wrote:
wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:
"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn

Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.
Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.




Actually, the cost of replacing the battery packs (after five years)
will run around $5000.00.


Since car packs are $3k to $5k, what makes you think an airplane rated
pack will be the same price?


Look at their website...
http://www.electraflyer.com/prices.html.
Heck... even their most expensive battery pack is "peanuts" compared to
the price you're going to pay for fuel for five years...





That's $1000.00 a year plus the cost for
multiple recharges @$.60 per charge... If you put 100 hours on the old
"Hobbs" every year that's the equivalent of paying about $10.30 an hour
for fuel... What's a gallon of 100/130 down your way??


Except you pay for fuel on a continuous basis over time.


What's your fuel consumption now?? It's not going to change over five
years (unless you upgrade to a bigger plane)... What *is* going to
change is the cost per gallon.



You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.


Everyone that owns an aircraft knows how to budget. "Lump sum" payments
like propeller overhauls, engine overhauls... I set aside the dollars
for all these items for every hour I put on the Hobbs... Don't you??
Mind you I fly a medium twin (Piper Aerostar) and I don't like "lump
sum" payments anymore than you do.



Oh, sure, you could take out a loan and spread the payments over 5 years,
but now you've added interest on the loan to the cost of the batteries.


What loan?? You buy the batteries with the aircraft. You budget for
replacement five years down the road (and add about 10 - 20 percent for
"contingencies")



Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life.


Irrelevant.


It isn't when you factor in a contingency for something like a rock or
bird strike...



Composite props already exist and are already used on conventional
gas engines.


Heh... Not on any of the conventional aircraft I've flown. I split my
time between a Cessna 185 on amphib floats and a Piper Aerostar.



The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.


Nonsense, an electric motor has a life limit. It may turn out to be
longer than a gas engine, but that is unknown at this time.


Correct... There hasn't been a "TBO" set yet... So let's factor in
that cost as well... An electric motor is a pretty simple device
compared to even a normally aspirated IO-540...



When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts".


Do you pay no attention to what you write?


I try to keep things simple. We were comparing the cost of fuel. I
threw in the other stuff to make a point. The cost your FBO is going to
charge on maintaining an electric motor over a reciprocating engine is
going to be "peanuts".



You were talking about FBO's and having swap out battery packs to keep
the airplanes in the air.


Swapping the battery pack looks like something even my grand daughter
will be able to do... in a few years. :-)



So it isn't A $5000 battery pack, it is 3 or 4 $5000 battery packs.


Nope. It's "one" battery pack...



What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)...


And using a trickle charger means you need even more battery packs at
$5000 per copy to keep the airplanes flying.


Huh?? You use a trickle charge to maintain the charge on the battery
(between uses), not to say... go cross country with the aircraft.



So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)


Yikes!!! indeed.


And all the little birdies sing "cheap, cheap, cheap!" :-)
  #18  
Old June 23rd 08, 05:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,892
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

Frank Olson wrote:

Look at their website... http://www.electraflyer.com/prices.html.
Heck... even their most expensive battery pack is "peanuts" compared to
the price you're going to pay for fuel for five years...


I did.

For $4400 to $8500 you get a battery pack for a single place ultralight
you will have to replace every 5 years or so whether you fly or not.

What's your fuel consumption now?? It's not going to change over five
years (unless you upgrade to a bigger plane)... What *is* going to
change is the cost per gallon.


Except my airplane if 4 place, not 1, and I can fly it into any
airport, which you can't do with an ultralight, so the comparison
is apples and lug wrenches.

Everyone that owns an aircraft knows how to budget. "Lump sum" payments
like propeller overhauls, engine overhauls... I set aside the dollars
for all these items for every hour I put on the Hobbs... Don't you??
Mind you I fly a medium twin (Piper Aerostar) and I don't like "lump
sum" payments anymore than you do.


Then you should have no problem with $4400 to $8500 every five years
for a 1 place ultralight.


What loan?? You buy the batteries with the aircraft. You budget for
replacement five years down the road (and add about 10 - 20 percent for
"contingencies")


The original thread was about FBO's having spare battery packs to keep
the airplanes flying between student/renters.

Please learn to read.

It isn't when you factor in a contingency for something like a rock or
bird strike...


Not much chance of a rock of bird strike with a 1 place ultralight;
the prop is high and the birds are faster.

Heh... Not on any of the conventional aircraft I've flown. I split my
time between a Cessna 185 on amphib floats and a Piper Aerostar.


That just means you don't have much experience.

And I would hardly call a 1 place ultralight a conventional aircraft.

Correct... There hasn't been a "TBO" set yet... So let's factor in
that cost as well... An electric motor is a pretty simple device
compared to even a normally aspirated IO-540...


True, but totally irrelevant.

I try to keep things simple. We were comparing the cost of fuel. I
threw in the other stuff to make a point. The cost your FBO is going to
charge on maintaining an electric motor over a reciprocating engine is
going to be "peanuts".


I'm sure the local FBO's are going to be standing in line to buy 1 place
ultralights.

Swapping the battery pack looks like something even my grand daughter
will be able to do... in a few years. :-)


Totally irrelevant to the cost of keeping the spares on hand.

Nope. It's "one" battery pack...


Not if you have to have spares on hand so the next renter can fly the
airplane without having to wait for the batteries to charge.

Huh?? You use a trickle charge to maintain the charge on the battery
(between uses), not to say... go cross country with the aircraft.


Huh my ass.

The original thread was that FBO's would keep precharged battery packs
on hand so the next customer can fly the plane without waiting hours
for the pack to recharge.

But that is rather moot as there are few FBO'x that are going to be
able to rent 1 place ultralights and zero that will be able to
provide training in them.

And all the little birdies sing "cheap, cheap, cheap!" :-)


If you are seeing little birdies, I would suggest seeing a doctor.

Spending $4400 to $8500 every five years on batteries to fly a 1 place
ultralight is not what I would call cheap.

Most 1 place ultralights burn less in gas in terms of dollars in a year
than I spend on french fries.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #19  
Old June 23rd 08, 10:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Frank Olson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

wrote:
Frank Olson wrote:

Look at their website...
http://www.electraflyer.com/prices.html.
Heck... even their most expensive battery pack is "peanuts" compared to
the price you're going to pay for fuel for five years...


I did.

For $4400 to $8500 you get a battery pack for a single place ultralight
you will have to replace every 5 years or so whether you fly or not.


It's called "operational expenses". :-)



What's your fuel consumption now?? It's not going to change over five
years (unless you upgrade to a bigger plane)... What *is* going to
change is the cost per gallon.


Except my airplane if 4 place, not 1, and I can fly it into any
airport, which you can't do with an ultralight, so the comparison
is apples and lug wrenches.


Ya gots me there.



Everyone that owns an aircraft knows how to budget. "Lump sum" payments
like propeller overhauls, engine overhauls... I set aside the dollars
for all these items for every hour I put on the Hobbs... Don't you??
Mind you I fly a medium twin (Piper Aerostar) and I don't like "lump
sum" payments anymore than you do.


Then you should have no problem with $4400 to $8500 every five years
for a 1 place ultralight.


I'm waiting for the twin version. :-)




What loan?? You buy the batteries with the aircraft. You budget for
replacement five years down the road (and add about 10 - 20 percent for
"contingencies")


The original thread was about FBO's having spare battery packs to keep
the airplanes flying between student/renters.


Hmmmm... I must be blind. I can't seem to find that reference in the OP.



Please learn to read.


Check...



It isn't when you factor in a contingency for something like a rock or
bird strike...


Not much chance of a rock of bird strike with a 1 place ultralight;
the prop is high and the birds are faster.


Good points. Although I've witnessed a couple of bird strikes...



Heh... Not on any of the conventional aircraft I've flown. I split my
time between a Cessna 185 on amphib floats and a Piper Aerostar.


That just means you don't have much experience.


???



And I would hardly call a 1 place ultralight a conventional aircraft.


Hmmm... wings, undercarriage, tail, cockpit... Looks a lot like a
"conventional aircraft" to me...



Correct... There hasn't been a "TBO" set yet... So let's factor in
that cost as well... An electric motor is a pretty simple device
compared to even a normally aspirated IO-540...


True, but totally irrelevant.


To what??



I try to keep things simple. We were comparing the cost of fuel. I
threw in the other stuff to make a point. The cost your FBO is going to
charge on maintaining an electric motor over a reciprocating engine is
going to be "peanuts".


I'm sure the local FBO's are going to be standing in line to buy 1 place
ultralights.


You're not looking at the "big picture". This aircraft represents the
future of general aviation. We don't have a limitless supply of oil,
and we have to do something to reduce our carbon emissions.



Swapping the battery pack looks like something even my grand daughter
will be able to do... in a few years. :-)


Totally irrelevant to the cost of keeping the spares on hand.


"Spares" which you could swap between aircraft on the same flight line.



Nope. It's "one" battery pack...


Not if you have to have spares on hand so the next renter can fly the
airplane without having to wait for the batteries to charge.


It looks to me like the "cost" of the aircraft may very well prove to be
in reach of the "average Joe". Who needs to "rent" when you can "own".



Huh?? You use a trickle charge to maintain the charge on the battery
(between uses), not to say... go cross country with the aircraft.


Huh my ass.


Sorry... I don't swing that way.



The original thread was that FBO's would keep precharged battery packs
on hand so the next customer can fly the plane without waiting hours
for the pack to recharge.


The original post said nothing of the sort. The thread "digressed"
(much like this series of responses).



But that is rather moot as there are few FBO'x that are going to be
able to rent 1 place ultralights and zero that will be able to
provide training in them.


Check.



And all the little birdies sing "cheap, cheap, cheap!" :-)


If you are seeing little birdies, I would suggest seeing a doctor.


I see birdies everywhere. And my vision is just fine.



Spending $4400 to $8500 every five years on batteries to fly a 1 place
ultralight is not what I would call cheap.


No... but with advances in technology, the four place electric plane is
just around the corner. And who knows?? It could even be solar
powered... :-)



Most 1 place ultralights burn less in gas in terms of dollars in a year
than I spend on french fries.


I suppose... And a lot of them even use two stroke weed whacker
engines... Yech!!!
  #20  
Old June 23rd 08, 12:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Stealth Pilot[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 846
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:35:02 GMT, wrote:

Frank Olson wrote:
wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.


chomp

Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life.


Irrelevant.

Composite props already exist and are already used on conventional
gas engines.


sorry that factor is relevant for a different reason. combustion
engines produce power in pulses that flog the daylights out of a prop.
an electric motor produces a more continuous supply of force to the
prop. so on that basis the prop would have an easier time of it.
so probably will the airframe.

The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.


Nonsense, an electric motor has a life limit. It may turn out to be
longer than a gas engine, but that is unknown at this time.

When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts".


Do you pay no attention to what you write?

You were talking about FBO's and having swap out battery packs to keep
the airplanes in the air.

So it isn't A $5000 battery pack, it is 3 or 4 $5000 battery packs.

What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)...


And using a trickle charger means you need even more battery packs at
$5000 per copy to keep the airplanes flying.

So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)


Yikes!!! indeed.


this argument is like the one for valve sound systems vs digital
systems. eventually digital won hands down after a few years of
developing it.

this is the start of a technology. if these guys can develop a weight
competitive system that delivers just 100hp continuously for days at a
time then they will have a huge market.
potentially the entire world's private aviation market.
of course they'll probably ignore that and just go for the commercial
market.

Stealth Pilot
 




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