Which 18m FES sailplane to buy?

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Lots of food for thought. It's a tough decision, but a fun one to make!

Now that I think about it, it's the original Ventus that has a reputation for tricky handling, not the Ventus 2, right? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Would the Ventus 2cx be a suitable glider for a low-time pilot?

keskiviikko 9. joulukuuta 2015 7.58.42 UTC+2 kirjoitti:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Lots of food for thought. It's a tough decision, but a fun one to make!

Now that I think about it, it's the original Ventus that has a reputation for tricky handling, not the Ventus 2, right? Perhaps I've misunderstood something. Would the Ventus 2cx be a suitable glider for a low-time pilot?

V2 is NOT trickier than any other modern glider, they all behave well. FES is available only Ventus is 2cxa. The a-letter means that you have to try it before ordering as the cockpit is made for pygmy people.

With the Ventus 3 on the way it would be daft to order a new Ventus 2 now - with or without FES - unless it was agreed that it would be a V3 when it arrived.

The V2cx is not a flapped Discus 2c. They have completely different wings. The D2c (I bought the first production one new) is a superb handling 15/18m glider that is very suitable for a low time pilot.

Purchasing rules for gliders are quite simple...

If you want flaps buy Schleicher
If you don't want flaps buy Schempp

(Schleicher don't do FES, (Yet))

PF

At 09:30 09 December 2015, wrote:
With the Ventus 3 on the way it would be daft to order a new Ventus 2 now
-
with or without FES - unless it was agreed that it would be a V3 when it
arrived.

The V2cx is not a flapped Discus 2c. They have completely different
wings.
The D2c (I bought the first production one new) is a superb handling
15/18m glider that is very suitable for a low time pilot.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:38:14 AM UTC-5, Surge wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 01:10:25 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I can understand why one would want a specific glider if one was planning to compete, but with so many more advantages of having a 13.5m, I wonder why more people do not consider them.

The performance of 13.5m gliders is a lot lower than even previous generation glass/carbon gliders. Most of the 13.5m gliders have max L/D's in the high 30's or low 40's and their performance drops drastically when some speed is added (typically 2m/s sink rate at around the 170km/h mark). Their lower wing loading limitations doesn't lend them for the booming weather found in Africa/Australia/Western USA.
Most of them also have much lower Vne's (around the 220 to 230km/h mark) and this becomes an issue at higher altitudes where one becomes Vne limited..

The only benefit that I can see in owning a 13.5m glider is easier rigging and derigging due to lower weight components but I'm not age limited yet.

I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The other advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne limitation became a problem. (Haven't got there yet).

It just seems more manufactures are building 13.5m (LAK just introduced the Mini Lak at the 1st International 13.5m), and I wonder what sales are of 13.5m compared to 15m and 18m.

I'm hoping in 4-5 yrs I can be in a position to upgrade to an FES.

I have ordered a GP12 E FLEX. The -2ms speed is 185kph at max allowed
wingloading (45kg/m2). The VELO will be better than that. It is self
launching of course, and the electric motor is not FES but on a pylon. This
is preferable to FES because with a folding prop there is very little drag
with the pylon out, and it is much more efficient aerodynamically, no FES
drag (1% or so), and less battery drain! Retract takes only 5 secs anyway.
Obviously an ultralight cannot compete with a fully ballasted 18m racer,
but then look at the price difference, 50% including a trailer! QED


At 13:46 09 December 2015, Casey Cox wrote:
On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:38:14 AM UTC-5, Surge wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 December 2015 01:10:25 UTC+2, Casey Cox wrote:
I can understand why one would want a specific glider if one was
planni=
ng to compete, but with so many more advantages of having a 13.5m, I
wonder=
why more people do not consider them.
=20
The performance of 13.5m gliders is a lot lower than even previous
genera=
tion glass/carbon gliders. Most of the 13.5m gliders have max L/D's in
the
=
high 30's or low 40's and their performance drops drastically when some
spe=
ed is added (typically 2m/s sink rate at around the 170km/h mark). Their
lo=
wer wing loading limitations doesn't lend them for the booming weather
foun=
d in Africa/Australia/Western USA.
Most of them also have much lower Vne's (around the 220 to 230km/h
mark)
=
and this becomes an issue at higher altitudes where one becomes Vne
limited=
..
=20
The only benefit that I can see in owning a 13.5m glider is easier
riggin=
g and derigging due to lower weight components but I'm not age limited
yet.

I figured that but seeing someone else actually state it helps. The
other
=
advantage you missed is Self Launch. I did not realize that Vne
limitation=
became a problem. (Haven't got there yet).

It just seems more manufactures are building 13.5m (LAK just introduced
the=
Mini Lak at the 1st International 13.5m), and I wonder what sales are of
1=
3.5m compared to 15m and 18m.

I'm hoping in 4-5 yrs I can be in a position to upgrade to an FES.

I've been told that there's a three year wait list for the Ventus 3! Wow.

The GP-14 Velo looks great, but a 13.5m sailplane does not suit my needs. I live in California where we have strong enough conditions that I will want to blast around at high speed on the good days, and an ultralight glider is not good for that.

Touch call. The easy part of your question is...why buy a standard class glider, ever? ;-). I certainly wouldn't. Less high speed performance, less climb, higher landing speeds and not really any easier to rig or less expensive.

Moving on...the HpH, from what I have seen is among the highest finish quality. Many recent buyers have been blown away. That's how you should feel, blown away! I think HpH will be increasing in popularity and is quietly selling a good deal of sailplanes. They are not aimed at hard core competitors for sure, but if your putting FES on a sailplane, that doesn't really matter much.

The Lak17b FES is also excellent. I have owned a Lak17a and found it highly under-rated by certain camps. The 17"b" suffers from the same. The '17a' was designed as a 15m glider and the 18m tips were an afterthought (although is was remarkably competitive in 18). It also had a fairly low max wingloading (for 18m) of around 10.5 lb/sq.ft with a 15m based max gross weight of 1103 lbs (a ASG29 goes to nearly 12 lb/sq.ft and 1330 lbs in 18).

The '17b' FES fixes all of those limitations and then some. It has completely redesigned wing focused on 18m class but also at home in 15 & 21m. The horizontal stab, elevator, fin and rudder are all slightly larger to accommodate for 18m and 21m. The cockpit and many other features have also been improved over the years. Also, Lak has been building FES gliders for years now. There installation is very clean and extremely well thought out. There is no more reliable sustainer on earth than FES. Smart move to consider it.

Here are some pictures of a new Lak17b from the Ontario Provincial Championships held over Labor Day weekend this September. It was beautiful and the trailer arrangement (all three tips ready to go!) was genius.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0VGQOeMmGCEx8j

Tough call. The easy part of your question is...why buy a new standard class glider, ever? ;-). I certainly wouldn't. Less high speed performance, less climb, higher landing speeds and not really any easier to rig or less expensive.

Moving on...the HpH, from what I have seen and heard, has among the best finish quality in the business. Many recent buyers have been impressed. I think HpH will be increasing in popularity and is quietly selling a good deal of sailplanes. They are not necessarily aimed at hard core competitors, but if your putting FES on your sailplane, absolute top possible performance doesn't matter as much.

The Lak17b FES is also very strong. I have owned a Lak17a and found it highly under-rated by certain camps. The 17"b" suffers from the same. The 17"a" was designed as a 15m glider and the 18m tips were an afterthought (although it was still quite competitive in 18). It also had the limitation of a fairly low max wingloading (for 18m) of around 10.5 lb/sq.ft with a 15m based max gross weight of 1103 lbs (a ASG29 goes to nearly 12 lb/sq.ft and 1330 lbs in 18).

The '17b' FES fixes all of those limitations and then some. It has completely redesigned wing focused on 18m class but also at home in 15 & 21m. The horizontal stab, elevator, fin and rudder are all slightly larger to accommodate for 18m and 21m. The cockpit and many other features have also been improved over the years. Also, Lak has been building FES gliders for years now. The installation is very clean and extremely well thought out. There is no more reliable sustainer on earth than FES. Smart move to consider it.

Here are some pictures of a new Lak17b from the Ontario Provincial Championships held over Labor Day weekend this September. It was beautiful and the trailer arrangement (all three tips ready to go!) was genius.

If I had to choose it would be very close between the two. Safety cockpit is a plus. Laks experience with FES installations is important. I've heard great things about both gliders but I have not flown either. Getting the Lak in time to fly next season would be nice too. Might be worth a trip to Europe to see the factories and get more info...

Good luck in your decision. Honestly I don't think you can make a bad one.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0VGQOeMmGCEx8j

On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 8:25:10 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
Tough call. The easy part of your question is...why buy a new standard class glider, ever? ;-). I certainly wouldn't. Less high speed performance, less climb, higher landing speeds and not really any easier to rig or less expensive.

I agree, but I'm not considering a standard class. Maybe you thought the Discus 2c is 15m? It's 18m, although 15m tips are available.

I wish I could take these sailplanes for a test flight, but I'm just not quite ready to fly a machine of this class. I'm sure I will be in a year, but then that would make it 1.5 to 2 years before I could take delivery of one.. It would be tough to wait that long. Maybe I should wait until I'm qualified to take a test flight, then see if I can find a used one. If I can't find a used one with a FES, I could possibly buy a used one in Europe and have the FES installed before it's shipped to the US. That would be a logistical challenge, I'm sure.

How much experience would a manufacturer, or a manufacturer's representative, require before they would let me test fly their aircraft? Is that something that buyers normally get to do?