Glider Purchase Procedure - Annual & Pre Purchase Inspection?

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 5:34:53 PM UTC-4, NMD wrote:
Hello,
I am closing in on my first glider purchase and have narrowed it down to three.

What is a safe purchase procedure for an older glider? Two are LS3's and one is an LS3A. All have been refinished in PU.

Is a new annual sufficient or it is advisable to have a pre-purchase inspection as well?

If an additional purchase inspection I would assume it would be prudent to have a 2nd A&P do it? 2 sets of eyes can’t hurt?
How thorough is a common annual and/or purchase inspection? Is a written report produced, similar to a Boat survey?

In addition to the commonly discussed items including damage history, exterior finish, and trailer condition, what are typical issues, pit falls, and specifics to look out for with an older glider?

New pilot, first ship, and I want to avoid spending more than the purchase price on repairs & maintenance.
Or is this inevitable and a false economy? Should I be 2X / 3X'ing my budget and considering a newer ship?

Thank you in advance for the replies! Jason

The first criteria, in my opinion, is whoever you select to assist you in pre purchase evaluation needs to be very experienced in sailplanes. Simply finding another A&P/IA does not assure you of this. It is possible that your best resource may not be an A&P.
In providing a pre purchase evaluation, I look at the following as a minimum:
1) Is there a complete history of the glider? Records are important and commonly not as complete as we would like.
2) Who did the last inspection? I expect this to be very recent. Does this inspector know sailplanes, especially composite sailplanes?
3) Evaluate damage history. This is not a deal breaker. Properly accomplished and documented, the only affect is any resulting weight changes. Note that damage history commonly does reduce future sell price as some people expect to buy only a glider with no significant damage history. This is somewhat unrealistic in older gliders.
4) Make sure AD's, service bulletins, tech notes, and periodic component replacements and weight and balance updates have been accomplished. More than half of the gliders I have done pre purchase inspections on have the following common issues:
a) Tow release out of service life.
b) Seat belt/ shoulder harnesses out of service life.
c) No recent weight and balance. Older than 5 years is a warning.
5) Physical inspection of the glider. This should be done to a written check list. Tap tests where appropriate. Evaluation of surface finish condition.. Look at hinges. Almost none will show signs of recent lubrication of hard to get at control surface hinges. Control play check will identify wear. Look for signs of undocumented minor repairs, especially on control surfaces.. Canopy condition is important. A properly done minor repair is no big deal. A canopy replacement is about a $6-8000 job, depending upon who does it.
6) Understand the storage history. Ships that live outside, not under cover, will have greater aging.
7) Evaluate the trailer. A trailer not well kept is usually a sign of a neglected glider.
8) Expect a written evaluation of findings.
This could go on, but hopefully you get the idea.
Aland Adams wrote an excellent article for Soaring magazine on this topic years ago.
Good luck with whatever ship you buy.
UH

Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.

That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.

Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.

Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.

Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)

Good luck with your search.

A bank transfer is much safer than a cashiers check for the seller so don’t be offended if it is required.
If the refinish is done by the owner or anyone for that matter make sure the control surface have been weighed and mass balanced and those numbers recorded somewhere and are within manufactures specs This is a safety of flight issue and an difficult To impossible to fix.
DLB

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:55:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.

That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.

Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.

Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.

Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)

Good luck with your search.

I think the whole idea of a pre-buy flight is a bad idea and I would not agree to it. After all, what is the buyer going to learn from the flight that he/she doesn't already know? If the glider is damaged by the buyer the seller takes a loss REGARDLESS of insurance coverage: the glider is now has to be taken to a repair shop (which may be a 1,000 miles or more away), the glider is off the market for months and the glider's value has dropped because of the damage. Worst case, the buyer kills himself and the estate sues the seller for wrongful death.

Tom

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 2:14:16 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 6:55:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Yes, cashiers check in hand, then you fly it, comes back in same condition, no worries just but dinner for the rental.

That sounds rare, but ideal, with care in the details.

Seller holds the check with the understanding of a china shop buy it if you break it rule.

Seller's insurance company has signed off on covering the buyer flying the seller's plane. Plane is in annual. Buyer is legal to fly.

Buyer is comfortable that the plane is ok to fly. (I've not yet bought and flown a glider without the luxury of time to go over it and address some safety of flight issues. Still, given the right circumstances...)

Good luck with your search.

I think the whole idea of a pre-buy flight is a bad idea and I would not agree to it. After all, what is the buyer going to learn from the flight that he/she doesn't already know? If the glider is damaged by the buyer the seller takes a loss REGARDLESS of insurance coverage: the glider is now has to be taken to a repair shop (which may be a 1,000 miles or more away), the glider is off the market for months and the glider's value has dropped because of the damage. Worst case, the buyer kills himself and the estate sues the seller for wrongful death.

Tom

I am with Tom on this. The only way I would allow flying would be if someone had time in the exact glider; make and model, and transferred the money before flight. Any damage during a test flight, and the glider would automatically becomes sold.

Joel, Would you mind sharing more about your pre-buy inspection? How did it go? What have you had to invest in maintenance, or expect to sped in the near future, since your purchase?

Thanks all for the excellent comments.
Any feedback regarding my “False Economy� question? Should one expect the cost of a 1970’s glider to quickly catch up to the cost of buying a ship from 2000 at twice the price, when repairs and maintenance costs are added in? I know from owning older sailboats that stuff breaks and it can be a constant battle.

I'm no expert (and there are plenty in this group) but I have owned a 1976 ASW 15 for 20 years or so. Unlike a car or sailboat, the routine maintenance costs have been very low. In fact, outside of self-inflicted damage, I've never had a large bill. There really isn't that much to wear out. Changing the Tost release, replacing the tire, a new grip on the stick, adding safety sleeves on the connections and replacing the battery are about all that I can think of. I'm toying with upgrading the panel but I don't race and it is functional for the kind of flying I do. If you opt for an older ship, be sure that parts are available should you need them. If you stick with the major manufacturers, it shouldn't be a problem. DG "tax" may be a consideration.

You won't get the same performance from an older glider and if a re-finish is in the cards, that is a major cost. Perhaps more than the glider itself and probably not recoverable in resale. If you have the time and skills to do this yourself (few of us do), you can save a lot. Also, safety cockpits weren't really a thing in the 70s. If your budget is limited and you can find a nice older ship, I wouldn't hesitate but to each, his own.

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 06:43:14 -0700, mdfadden wrote:

If you opt for an older ship, be sure that parts are available should
you need them. If you stick with the major manufacturers, it shouldn't
be a problem. DG "tax" may be a consideration.

Agreed, and Glasfaser provides very good support for Glasflugel gliders,
e.g, Libelles and Kestrels


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wings and Wheels Classified For Sale, right now, there is a Javelin and a Cherokee
that you can practice you pre purchase inspection skills on if needed!
Nick
T