A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Military Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old October 20th 03, 11:21 PM
ArtKramr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Subject: 50% of NAZI oil was supplied from US
From: Steve Hix NVALID
Date: 10/20/03 3:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time


.from the beginning of the war in late '39 until Barbarossa. U.S. had
quit most fuel exports to Germany when the war began in Europe.


It was my pleasure to personally destroy tons of Gemrnan fues supplies in
repeated raids against tank farms. Go to my website and click on "WURZBURG" for
a photograph taken at the moment we hit a fuel farm and the resulting
fireball on the ground. It felt good.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ads
  #52  
Old October 20th 03, 11:49 PM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message

...
This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
news server.



If you just want to go on the avgas, motor vehicle fuel and diesel
oil then stocks as of September 1939 were 1,241,000 tons,
production and imports 1940 to 1944 were 23,975,000 metric
tons of which 7,492,000 metric tons were imports.


So 24 or 7.5 mil tons?


24 million tons was the total production of which
7.5 million were imports

Note imports
include over 1,000,000 tons of captured fuel and fuel sent directly
from Romania to the German army in the East.


Romania was German ally till 44. why to capture?


He said Romanian production AND captured fuel


Rather hard for the US to supply half of Germany's oil needs
unless there were large multi million ton imports in the 1937
to 1939 period, which clearly did not happen as the import
figures and 1939 fuel reserves figures show.


Which import? US one? Maybe. How about Mexican, Venezuelian,
S. African export under Standard oil control?


Coulddnt get there, the RN were rather efficient at blockading Germany

Diesel production
1940 to 1944 amounted to 5,427,000 tons, imports another
2,327,000 tons, stocks as of September 1939 298,000 tons.
The U-boats were the big users of diesel, again rather hard
for the US to supply 100% of the U-boat fuel.


The article says that above mentioned oil was mainly supplied to
Canaries where it was partly refined partly reloaded to Spanish
tankers to be delivered in Mediterian ports under germany control.


Spain had barely suffucient tankers for its own needs and
tankers heading for axis ports tended to be sunk on sight.


It would be good to know which country's ships were being
used to transport the oil, the allies were always short of
tankers until very late in the war. Spain in 1939 had some
16 tankers, or 86,000 Gross registered tons (ships of
1,600 GRT or larger).


Well the artcile says that on the route from Americas to Canaries
the Standard's tankers fleet under Panama flags were used. after
that on the way from canaries to mediterian ports spanish tankers
were used. The numbers fits. one week round trip 86000 tons*52=
4.5 mil tons/year plus german sub fleet refuelling in canaries
until 44 at least 1 mil tons /year plus unknown amount of
refulling of german subs in bases of S. America organized by
Davis oil company.


Dont be silly.

1) A tanker cant make a delivery every week from the
USA to the Canary Islands. Its 3-4 weeks each way
including time for loading

2) That tanker fleet was all Spain had to meet its own
oil needs

3) The Canaries didnt have the facilities to handle such traffic

4) There are no German or Spanish records to indicate
any such dealings

All around import from US companies 6 mil tons/year.


In the time period 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941 the
USSR supplied over 1,000,000 tons of petroleum products
to Germany out of over 3,500,000 tons of supplies. Then
add another 380,000 tons from Japan and 80,000 tons
from Afghanistan and Iran the USSR allowed to be
shipped through the USSR. See the Economic Blockade
by W N Medlicott, which goes into great detail about
Germany's imports from neutral countries, it includes
detailed tables from Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal,
French North Africa and the USSR. It goes into the
negotiations the allies undertook with the neutrals to
minimise their trade with Germany and ensure they were
not used for blockade breaking.


Indeed. However none after june 22, 1941 form USSR
while Spanish oil was in fact 100% US one.


Spain was of course neutral and received barely sufficient oil
for its own use.

Keith


  #55  
Old October 21st 03, 05:46 AM
Hugo S. Cunningham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Maybe this website can help you?

http://www.everything2.org/index.pl?node=Odin's%2018%20charms

--Hugo S. Cunningham
  #56  
Old October 21st 03, 05:48 AM
Regnirps
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It was my pleasure to personally destroy tons of Gemrnan fues supplies in
repeated raids against tank farms. Go to my website and click on "WURZBURG" for
a photograph taken at the moment we hit a fuel farm and the resulting
fireball on the ground. It felt good.

Nice hit Art. Got any film?

-- Charlie Springer

  #57  
Old October 21st 03, 06:36 AM
Geoffrey Sinclair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a bad
news server.

Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...


Michael Petukhov wrote in message ...
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...=16866&lang=ru

(in russian)

The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.


I see someone is writing bad fiction and others are trying
to believe it.

The allied air offensive against Germany's oil supplies
means the German oil situation has been well documented.

Germany's oil imports, crude oil, fuels and lubricants, 1933
2,703,000, 1934 3,158,000, 1935 3,792,000, 1936
4,216,000, 1937 4,307,000, 1938 4,967,000 metric tons.
The increase is due to the economic recovery and stockpiling.

Germany had 2,134,000 metric tons of oil stocks on 1 August
1939, excluding the west fortification zone. Oil production in
greater Germany 1940 to 1944 was 29,482,000 metric tons,
this includes things like liquid gases.


In 30 mil tons/5= 6 mil tons/year in agreement with data present
in the article.


This is all oil production and appears to be the only fact the
article has correct.

If you just want to go on the avgas, motor vehicle fuel and diesel
oil then stocks as of September 1939 were 1,241,000 tons,
production and imports 1940 to 1944 were 23,975,000 metric
tons of which 7,492,000 metric tons were imports.


So 24 or 7.5 mil tons?


Total production 16,483,000, imports 7,492,000.

Note imports
include over 1,000,000 tons of captured fuel and fuel sent directly
from Romania to the German army in the East.


Romania was German ally till 44. why to capture?


The majority of the captured fuel was French in 1940,
then the Italian stocks in 1943.

Rather hard for the US to supply half of Germany's oil needs
unless there were large multi million ton imports in the 1937
to 1939 period, which clearly did not happen as the import
figures and 1939 fuel reserves figures show.


Which import? US one? Maybe. How about Mexican, Venezuelian,
S. African export under Standard oil control?


How about looking and seeing it is the German import
figures that show imports were under 1/3 of production
during the war, and then note how low the stocks were in
September 1939. The German war machine burnt more
Soviet fuel than US. For the US to supply half the German
oil then the US has to be the major supplier pre war and
German stocks have to be on the order of 9 million tons
in 1939, all taken from US imports. Note in the 1933 to
1938 period Romania supplied around 13% of German
fuel imports, 3,012,000 tons, in 1939 the imports from
Romania were around 1,285,000 tons.

Diesel production
1940 to 1944 amounted to 5,427,000 tons, imports another
2,327,000 tons, stocks as of September 1939 298,000 tons.
The U-boats were the big users of diesel, again rather hard
for the US to supply 100% of the U-boat fuel.


The article says that above mentioned oil was mainly supplied to
Canaries where it was partly refined partly reloaded to Spanish
tankers to be delivered in Mediterian ports under germany control.


I see the claim is there was a large oil port in the canaries,
capable of handling millions of tons of fuel per year, plus
refinery capacity. What did this port do pre war and what
did it do post war?

Can you explain why the book Oil and War by Goralski
and Freeburg does not mention any Spanish refining
capacity, even when it mentions Norway's 1,200 barrels
per day capacity, about 0.01% of world capacity? The
book has many tables on world oil production and
refining capacities.

It would be good to know which country's ships were being
used to transport the oil, the allies were always short of
tankers until very late in the war. Spain in 1939 had some
16 tankers, or 86,000 Gross registered tons (ships of
1,600 GRT or larger).


Well the artcile says that on the route from Americas to Canaries
the Standard's tankers fleet under Panama flags were used. after
that on the way from canaries to mediterian ports spanish tankers
were used.


So with a world wide shortage of tankers, the British did
not notice all those US tankers sailing full to the Canaries
and then empty back to the US? Supplying Spain with
many times its pre war fuel consumption. Furthermore
the British let all those loaded tankers sail past Gibraltar
and onto the French Mediterranean ports all war, even
after the capture of French North Africa in late 1942?

The numbers fits. one week round trip 86000 tons*52=
4.5 mil tons/year plus german sub fleet refuelling in canaries
until 44 at least 1 mil tons /year plus unknown amount of
refulling of german subs in bases of S. America organized by
Davis oil company.


Can you please explain why U-boats would go to the North
Atlantic from France and Germany via the Canaries?

Can you please note people have examine the U-boat
war diaries and the claims the U-boats received large
scale help from neutrals is clearly wrong?

Can you show all the U-boat kills around the Canaries,
after all if they all went there then there must be plenty
sunk by allied ASW assets.

All around import from US companies 6 mil tons/year.


This is quite funny, the German records show imports for
the 5 years 1940 to 1944 to be 7 million tons, but we have
someone claiming imports were 6 million tons per year.
Also the pre war import figures were below 5 million tons
per year, with one possible exception, 1939.

In the time period 1 September 1939 to 22 June 1941 the
USSR supplied over 1,000,000 tons of petroleum products
to Germany out of over 3,500,000 tons of supplies. Then
add another 380,000 tons from Japan and 80,000 tons
from Afghanistan and Iran the USSR allowed to be
shipped through the USSR.


To clarify the imports from Japan etc were various supplies,
no oil.

See the Economic Blockade
by W N Medlicott, which goes into great detail about
Germany's imports from neutral countries, it includes
detailed tables from Sweden, Turkey, Spain, Portugal,
French North Africa and the USSR. It goes into the
negotiations the allies undertook with the neutrals to
minimise their trade with Germany and ensure they were
not used for blockade breaking.


Indeed. However none after june 22, 1941 form USSR
while Spanish oil was in fact 100% US one.


I doubt this will really matter but the reference I gave gives
2 sets of figures for the named countries, the German
records of what they received and the relevant country's
records of what they exported. Things like 3 tons of
Mercury and Mercury alloys from Spain in 1939, 4 tons
of lead ore in 1943. Neither the German nor Spanish
records show oil products except olive oil.

Do you understand? Zero oil products. The article you so
want to believe in is fiction. The two main external sources
of German fuel 1939 to 1944 were the Romanians and
the USSR. Whoever supplied oil to the Germans pre
war contributed to the 1,241,000 fuel stockpile at the
start of the war and certainly some of that was western
oil but that stockpile was 1.2 million tons versus 24
million tons of production/imports 1940 to 1944, makes
it 5%. Sounds like at best the writer simply added a zero
to sell the story to those who would pay to hear what
they wanted to hear.

Romanian fuel exports (tons) to Germany and Czechoslovakia
1938 999,240, 1939 1,285,153, 1940 1,429,807, 1941
2,885,229, 1942 1,822,207, 1943 1,795,555. Directly to the
German army in the east 1941 34,351, 1942 369,452, 1943
715,749. So Romania contributed around 20% of German
oil imports in 1938, and even more in 1939.

One note, in 1940 the USSR imported around 1,000,000
barrels (NOT tons) of oil from the US, while selling oil to
the Germans.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


  #59  
Old October 21st 03, 08:56 PM
Snuffy Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
Germany.


"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...=16866&lang=ru

(in russian)

The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

Michael



  #60  
Old October 22nd 03, 01:35 PM
Stuart Wilkes
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Snuffy Smith" wrote in message et...
Don't forget to tell us about all the raw materials Uncle Joe sent to Nazi
Germany.


As well as the raw materials the US sent to Japan.

Stuart Wilkes

"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_art...=16866&lang=ru

(in russian)

The article discuss the oil balance of NAZI Germany in 37 - june 44.
The funny side is that some 50% of oil and petrolium products
were supplied by US based companies (the standard oil of New Jersey,
the standard oil of California and the Davis oil company) mainly via
Spain. This includes 100% of oil supply for NAZI subs operating in
Atlantic. All these operations were authorised by US government.

Michael

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nazi bombers found under East Berlin airport Nick Military Aviation 9 July 29th 03 08:50 AM
Charles Lindbergh, racist & Nazi sympathizer John O. Military Aviation 24 July 29th 03 02:12 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2022 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.