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STAR to nearby airport



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 12th 04, 06:17 PM
jsmith
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Teacherjh wrote:

I always file "NO SIDS OR STARS" in the Remarks.


Don't they just give you the SID or STAR anyway, just spell it out for you?
They want to vector you far away, they vector you far away./


You do not have to accept the clearance.
  #12  
Old May 12th 04, 06:27 PM
Roy Smith
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In article , jsmith wrote:

Teacherjh wrote:

I always file "NO SIDS OR STARS" in the Remarks.


Don't they just give you the SID or STAR anyway, just spell it out for you?
They want to vector you far away, they vector you far away./


You do not have to accept the clearance.


It's true that you don't have to accept a clearance, but that doesn't
give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You should decline a
clearance if you're unable to comply due to operational limitations
(can't climb that high, don't have enough fuel, don't have the required
navigational equipment, etc) or there's a safety issue (oxygen, ice,
over-water, etc). You can keep saying "unable" and the controller will
keep trying to come up with alternatives, but eventually you may be
called upon to defend your actions, and "because I didn't want to take a
detour" won't impress people very much as a defense.

Weather permitting, you could always cancel IFR and take whatever route
you want.
  #13  
Old May 12th 04, 07:40 PM
Teacherjh
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You do not have to accept the clearance.

.... and you could be sitting on the ground forever waiting for a better one.
This is actually quite common in the NY/CT area. Freezing level at 4000,
overcast at 2000, I filed for 3000, and got 7000 despite comments to the effect
that I can't accept routings into icing conditions and need to stay below the
freezing level.

We negotiated on the ground for an hour. Their alternative was either 7000 and
their routing, or come back tomorrow. They were not going to give me anything
else for any reason.

So, I accepted the clearance and negotiated in the air. Picking up ice at
7000, I was able to get 8000 and break out on top.

With this in mind, to reject the clearance because it happens to be the same as
a SID won't get you far. At least not in this town. You fly what they want,
or you don't fly.

Jose



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  #14  
Old May 12th 04, 07:45 PM
Teacherjh
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We negotiated on the ground for an hour. Their alternative was either 7000 and
their routing, or come back tomorrow. They were not going to give me anything
else for any reason.


I'll add to this... that I brought this up at a WINGS safety meeting (meet with
the controllers) and they confirmed that that is the way they do business in
the NY area.

Jose

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  #15  
Old May 12th 04, 08:39 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"EDR" wrote in message
...

I am not a jet jockey. I fly a slow spam can. If I am given a SID or
STAR I am going to be flying miles out of my way, well below traffic
that the procedures are designed to separate.


Arrival/departure routes often vary with altitude. If a route applies to
your slow spam can it's going to be issued without regard to what you've put
in remarks. Putting "NO SIDS OR STARS" in remarks means you won't be issued
a SID or STAR by name, it'll just be issued in full. All you've done is
crowd the frequency.


  #16  
Old May 12th 04, 08:39 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Don't they just give you the SID or STAR anyway, just spell it out
for you?


Yup.


  #17  
Old May 12th 04, 08:41 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"jsmith" wrote in message ...

You do not have to accept the clearance.


That's true. But the alternative may be staying on the ground in the case
of a SID or diverting to another airport in the case of a STAR.


  #19  
Old May 12th 04, 10:15 PM
Newps
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"jsmith" wrote in message ...


Teacherjh wrote:

I always file "NO SIDS OR STARS" in the Remarks.


Don't they just give you the SID or STAR anyway, just spell it out for

you?
They want to vector you far away, they vector you far away./


You do not have to accept the clearance.


You can try going that route. If you get into busy airspace you will fly
the most efficient route for ATC. If you choose not to accept that then you
can wait until the traffic flow slows down. Might be hours.


  #20  
Old May 12th 04, 10:17 PM
Newps
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"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...


eventually, they find something to do with you, but it sure doesn't seem
like the right way to run things.


But be careful because ATC may have to have you at 8000. So if you are
unable you may be parked for a long while.


 




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