How to adhere to this obstacle departure procedure?

wrote:
Just keep in mind that in Class G, VFR is one mile visibility, and VFR
aircraft (even radioless, by the way) could be rattling around the
pattern.

That's often what we call IFR weather, and we all tend to get a bit
careless about this stuff, especially until the first time you see a
VFR aircraft land that you did not expect to be out there.

Better overkill than be killed. Not only announce, but keep an eye
out if the visibility is a mile or more.

A few months ago in IFR magazine they had a story about this. I believe
the departing aircraft was a small jet who never announced anything
on a crossing runway to landing traffic.

Gerald

wrote:

Just keep in mind that in Class G, VFR is one mile visibility, and VFR
aircraft (even radioless, by the way) could be rattling around the
pattern.

That's often what we call IFR weather, and we all tend to get a bit
careless about this stuff, especially until the first time you see a
VFR aircraft land that you did not expect to be out there.

Good point. Flying mostly in the northeast US, where the only class G
airspace is either 700 or 1,200 ft AGL (making VFR operations a real scud
running mission in IFR conditions), I often forget about the other parts of
the country where class G airspace is much more voluminous.


--
Peter


















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"Peter R." wrote:

Roy Smith wrote:

Only? That's a climb gradient of less than 100 feet per mile.

OK, so that clears the tower by an inch or two, but I was thinking more of
the typical IFR obstacle clearance amount, which would be somewhere around
250 feet per mile.


If there is no climb gradient specified, a minimum of 200 feet is required. Anything
less than that and you are not protected. It's all in the AIM.

Roy Smith wrote:



DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwys 6, 15, climb runway
heading to 1200, then climbing left turn direct DKK
VORTAC before proceeding on course. Rwys 24, 33,
climb runway heading to 1200, then climbing right turn
direct DKK VORTAC before proceeding on course.
Southbound aircraft cross DKK VORTAC at or above
2300.

BTW, I think it's a little confusing the way this DP is worded. At
first glance, it looks like the requirement to cross DKK at or above
2300 only applies to 24 and 33 departures, but I'm pretty sure it
applies to all departures.

How do you read that, at first glance it applies only to 24 and 33 into it?
It says "Southbound aircraft cross DKK VORTAC at or abouve 2300." That
sentence doesn't say anything about which runway.

I suppose this is where receiving training from an experienced
instrument pilot and instructor would far surpass receiving training
from a time-building instructor.

Not really. What makes you think that an experienced pilot or
instructor necessarily has any higher level of knowledge regarding
obstacle clearances on IFR departure procedures? Opinions, sure, but
knowledge?

Point two is that students only retain a small fraction of what
they're taught. Even if your instructor had understood the sublties
regarding ODP's, it's not likely that you would have digested them in
their entirety.

An interesting thing about DP's is that they tend to not be very
GPS-friendly. They're often full of stuff like intercepting bearings, and
determining when you've crossed a certain radial. Nothing you can't do
with a GPS, but people tend to be less familiar with these functions than
with just going direct to a waypoint.

Roy Smith wrote:

An interesting thing about DP's is that they tend to not be very
GPS-friendly. They're often full of stuff like intercepting bearings, and
determining when you've crossed a certain radial. Nothing you can't do
with a GPS, but people tend to be less familiar with these functions than
with just going direct to a waypoint.

Then again, portables like the Garmin 295 and 296 have an RMI option, which
would make flying this particular ODP very easy.

Greg Esres wrote:

Not really. What makes you think that an experienced pilot or
instructor necessarily has any higher level of knowledge regarding
obstacle clearances on IFR departure procedures? Opinions, sure, but
knowledge?

I am making the assumption that one who flies often in the system is more
proficient and experienced. Proficiency and knowledge, when coupled with
a desire to instruct, carries a lot more weight than one who received their
ratings back-to-back with an ultimate goal of flying for the airlines.

A pilot who has logged many hours flying in the system for real, as in
commuting, traveling, etc., is going to encounter many more of the
procedural and weather subtleties of IFR flight than a time-building
instructor who logs 95 percent of his/her hours as an instructor.

Not only have I encountered this first hand, but I have spoken with others
at about my same level have also encountered this issue when seeking IFR
refresher training.

This is one reason why I subscribe to _IFR_ and _IFR Refresher_. I look to
the articles within these periodicals to learn from the experiences of
those who have been flying or controlling IFR aircraft for many
hours/years.

Point two is that students only retain a small fraction of what
they're taught.

Is that so? Have a study to back this up? I suggest that those who
routinely exercise their rating in actual IMC will reinforce all that they
have learned and then some. That's my opinion, worth what you paid for
it.

Even if your instructor had understood the sublties
regarding ODP's, it's not likely that you would have digested them in
their entirety.

Perhaps. IMO this would depend on the student and what they actually do
with their IFR rating once they receive it. If it gets tucked away on a
shelf and rarely used to fly in actual IMC, then I would agree.

--
Peter


















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I am making the assumption that one who flies often in the system is
more proficient and experienced. Proficiency and knowledge, when
coupled with

You're confusing the concepts of "proficient", "experienced", and
"knowledge".

Lots of experienced, proficient pilots out there with no knowledge of
obstacle clearance requirements. Lots of experienced, proficient
pilots with lousy radio technique. Lots of experienced, proficient
pilots who don't understand how airplanes fly.

retention level is low...Is that so? Have a study to back this
up?

Six years instructing, and sampling knowledge levels after training is
over? But any learning theory book will supply you with the studies
you seek, if common sense doesn't.

IMO this would depend on the student and what they actually do
with their IFR rating once they receive it.

Not in this case. The only way you can reinforce your knowledge of
ODP's is to hit something every now and then. Until you do, this
knowledge is merely theoretical.

I don't disagree with the answers you received on this question, but
you bought into the idea that turning to the heading is "close enough"
without any idea of whether the posters knew what they were talking
about.

You can learn a lot from _IFR_ and _IFR Refresher_ but the knowledge
level of the authors is highly variable. I dumped "Refresher" after
some random CFI wrote a "Pitch vs. Power" article. When I want that
sort of analysis, I'll turn to aerodynamics texts. I stopped taking
"IFR" after I noticed that so many of their quizzes contained
incorrect answers. These guys are supposed to be experts?

Opinion from experienced pilots can be useful, but you need a way to
discern the good stuff from the bad stuff. Unless they rigorously
work to improve their own knowledge, they're as likely to be as full
of crap as the newbie -II, maybe more so.

The rules are explicit, and well-defined.

My statement said nothing about the ODP criteria, but only the typical
pilot's knowledge of them.