VFR on top

In my understanding, the pilot is responsible for VFR separation from clouds
while operating "VFR on top." To what extent (and what would be the best way
to go about) to deviate heading to avoid clouds?

"Nick Kliewer" wrote in message =
...
In my understanding, the pilot is responsible for VFR separation from =
clouds
while operating "VFR on top." To what extent (and what would be the =
best way
to go about) to deviate heading to avoid clouds?

I wouldn't rely much upon deviation to avoid clouds during VFR-on-top.
I'd either climb higher to remain above the clouds, or else revert to =
ordinary IFR.

That said, however, if a solitary deviation of a few degrees were all =
I'd need,
I think I'd simply inform ATC of my need for some specific deviation,
in exactly the same way I'd handle a request for deviation
around an embedded thunderstorm showing on my radar.
For example, "Nxxxx requests deviation ten degrees left for weather."

"Greg Farris" wrote in message
...

I can almost hear the center controller's hair being pulled out!
You may be VFR, responsible for visual separation, but the IFR traffic
near you is not. Suddenly you want ten degrees left! Maybe in wide-open
places with little traffic - try asking something like that to Boston
center.


Oh, but the IFR traffic near him IS just as responsible for visual
separation as he
is. It's the Center controller that has no separation responsibility in
this case.


§ 91.113 Right-of-way rules: Except water operations.

(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an
operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules,
vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to
see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another
aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may
not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.



VFR on top is a wierd one.
One gets the feeling controllers don't understand why pilots request this.
Not sure I do either - unless, once again, you're out west somewhere,
where it might give you some extra freedom.


It keeps you in the IFR system, whether that gives you "extra freedom" or
not is debatable. ATC's not gonna move you for traffic, but you may have to
move for clouds.

"Peter" wrote in message
...

VFR on top is nevertheless a great favourite (favorite) of FAA IR
examiners


Because few applicants have a thorough understanding of it.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


VFR on top is nevertheless a great favourite (favorite) of FAA IR
examiners


Because few applicants have a thorough understanding of it.

And few controllers. I've quit using it because it just isn't worth the
confusion.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

In article ,
says...



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


VFR on top is nevertheless a great favourite (favorite) of FAA IR
examiners


Because few applicants have a thorough understanding of it.

And few controllers. I've quit using it because it just isn't worth the
confusion.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM



The confusion is because the center controllers can't picture the 172 "on
top"!

Sorry - couldn't resist. :-)

Greg Farris wrote:
In article ,
says...


I think I'd simply inform ATC of my need for some specific deviation,
in exactly the same way I'd handle a request for deviation
around an embedded thunderstorm showing on my radar.
For example, "Nxxxx requests deviation ten degrees left for weather."



I can almost hear the center controller's hair being pulled out!
You may be VFR, responsible for visual separation, but the IFR traffic near
you is not. Suddenly you want ten degrees left! Maybe in wide-open places with
little traffic - try asking something like that to Boston center.

Really? I'm certainly surprised that would be a problem for Boston Center. I
don't fly in that airspace very often, but where I fly (NC and environs) those
kinds of deviations are pretty common. I don't know about VFR on top, but I mean
on an IFR plan.

Dan Luke wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


VFR on top is nevertheless a great favourite (favorite) of FAA IR
examiners


Because few applicants have a thorough understanding of it.


And few controllers. I've quit using it because it just isn't worth the
confusion.

Yeah, no kidding. Just this weekend I overheard someone on the radio request VFR
on top, and the controller responded with "IFR cancellation received"... Funny
thing is, that seemed to be just fine with the pilot, so I don't think either of
them knew what they were saying.

DGB

Peter wrote:
: Here in the UK, a pilot with an IMC or Instrument Rating flying above
: an overcast layer can call himself "VFR". There just isn't any point
: that I can think of because he can legally call himself "IFR" and get
: a better service from ATC.

Ah, but the main advantage (AIUI) is that the IFR clearance "VFR on top" gives
you the flexibility of chosing your own routing while still staying in the system. In
congested airspace, it's often unlikely they'll give you a routing at IFR altitudes
due to conflicting traffic. With VFR on top they're more likely to let you through
without a big diversion.

: One problem might be if on an IFR flight plan (mandatory in Class A,
: or if crossing national boundaries) and then one has to be IFR as per
: the clearance.

: The U.S. rules confuse the hell out of me, especially if the question
: is on separation from cloud on a VFR on top clearance, at night, in
: class C... I suppose one has to memorise it only once per life and,
: out of the USA, one never needs to use any of it anyway.

No joke... What an unnecessary PITA. Its only real value seems to be filler
for exam questions.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

Ah, but the main advantage (AIUI) is that the IFR clearance "VFR on top"
gives
you the flexibility of chosing your own routing while still staying in the
system. In
congested airspace, it's often unlikely they'll give you a routing at IFR
altitudes
due to conflicting traffic. With VFR on top they're more likely to let
you through
without a big diversion.


Clearance to maintain VFR-on-Top does not alter the assigned route. Given
that separation is no longer an issue it may be easier to obtain desired
routing, but it's still an IFR operation. If you're going to a destination
where IFR arrivals require some specified route you're still going to need
that route.