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#21
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
Tony Cox wrote: "Newps" wrote in message ... Tony Cox wrote: Right now, the supposed FAA edict banning anything but aircraft No such rule. The FAA would never get into this area. That's what we think. But how do you prove it to a skeptical City Council, especially when Blakely announces at Oshkosh that the FAA is going to "crack down on hangar misuse" ?? People waiting in line for years at Santa Monica for hangars that are being used as movie sets or storage for movie stars' classic car collections would be grateful for this. The FAA does need to crack down on hangar misuse, but of course will they draw the line in the right place? Hangars should be used for aviation, not for storing cars, RVs, etc. However putting a couch and a beer fridge in there doesn't prevent aviation use, nor does parking your car in it while you're out flying. I think the idea is a good one, even if the implementation needs tweaking. |
#22
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
"ktbr" wrote in message
... Tony Cox wrote: Perhaps there is even someone out there who has a definitive ruling from the local FSDO... Has nothing to do with the FSDO. The airport exists for aviation. The airport has a right to insure the proper usage of the property will promote aviation and aircraft operations. On the other hand, if they granted someone a long term lease to build a hangar on the property and the lease does not state that the hangar is to be used for an airplane and/or aviation related activites then that's a different story. I think we all agree that hangars are for aircraft, not storage. But then if one can fit a boat under the wing of a Cessna, why not? It's not like its taking space that could otherwise be used for another plane. But I'm not out to start a debate on what *ought* to be stored. Rather, it is the FAA missives that *regulate* what can be stored if, in fact, they actually exist. We are being told that *no personal items* whatever can be stored in hangars. This means no tables, chairs, sofas or fridges, as well as "arguable" items such as RVs and boats. Further, we're being assured that there is a FAA regulation that mandates this. Frankly, we don't believe it, but proving it is another matter. Looking at the various grant assurance passages reveals nothing. Checking the advisory circulars draws a blank too. So what is left? Opinions from the local FSDO is all that comes to mind. What I'm hoping for is for someone to say "Yes, we had a similar situation at xxxxx and asked FSDO for a ruling. And this is what they said...". |
#23
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
ktbr wrote: Don Tuite wrote: There's a 20 year waiting list at our airport. These are county-built hangars. Guys on the list with working airplanes seem happy to have the airport manager evict people who use their hangars for storage lockers. Any airport that thinks it is a good idea to lease their hangars out to people who are using them to store furniture in is not serious about aviation. I agree, but sometimes it happens without the airport management even knowing about it. Then you'll find out how hard it is to put right. In our case, we have some leasehold agreements that don't specify aviation activity. We have some that do, but whose owners have been in blatant default for *decades*. We have a sprinkling of the well- connected who ignore the regulations entirely and get away with it. But the vast majority of us are bone fide pilots. We put our planes to bed at night and then socialize in the hangars. Lot of fun that'd be on the concrete floor with no beer. Some of us fly in from out of town on the weekend, park the plane and swap it for a boat to go on the lake. We're caught up in a "rationalization" caused by the accumulated mis-management over several years and are doing our best to preserve the environment we love. |
#24
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
Tony Cox wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote: It should have been in the lease agreement. If not, you should be able to modify the lease with certain terms. You'll need to review the original lease and perhaps speak with a property attorney. Well, our situation is rather complex. Leases are governed by eight different agreements (depending on when the hangars were constructed), some of which have blanket clauses that incorporate the general airport rules and regs, others that don't. That's why I didn't want to get into the specifics of the our leases and just (hopefully) trawl for what people at other airports have experienced. We have obtained legal advice, and the opinion, FWIW, is that the lease rules are most probably unenforceable due to the airport's neglect over the last several years. Right now, the supposed FAA edict banning anything but aircraft is more of a procedural problem for us airport tenants attempting to regularize the various leases than a threat to our lifestyle -- no one in the City is prepared to consider any concrete proposal because they confidently expect the FAA to "rule" definitively on the issue. Those of us with more experience with the FAA think that getting anyone in the local FSDO to commit is likely to be as frustrating as waiting for Godot. That's why I'd like to hear from anyone who *has* managed to get a ruling. Failing that, "points on the graph" at FAA-funded airports would be very helpful. I have not read all the other responses so I may duplicate some here. I have been involved in my home airport for some time and member and chairman of the advisory board. Early on when we really didn't have management, people would rent hangars for local storage. When I became chairman I worked with the city to have regulations to stop that practice. We have limited hangars and they are not to be used for household storage. We came up with some general guidelines and in no particular order. Contents had to be approved by the fire marshall, had to have a plane or *actively* working on a plane, you could have incidental items in the hangar as long as you met the requirement on aircraft. There were a few others but I cannot remember now. Oh, also were insurance requirements for plane and auto if you brought it on the ramp. -- Regards, Ross C-172F 180HP KSWI |
#25
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
Tony Cox wrote: But I'm not out to start a debate on what *ought* to be stored. Rather, it is the FAA missives that *regulate* what can be stored if, in fact, they actually exist. They do not and never will. It is not a Federal issue but rather local. We are being told that *no personal items* whatever can be stored in hangars. This means no tables, chairs, sofas or fridges, as well as "arguable" items such as RVs and boats. Further, we're being assured that there is a FAA regulation that mandates this. Frankly, we don't believe it, but proving it is another matter. Why do you have to prove it? You can't prove a negative. Make them show you the documents. |
#26
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
Tony Cox wrote:
What I'm hoping for is for someone to say "Yes, we had a similar situation at xxxxx and asked FSDO for a ruling. And this is what they said...". AIP Grants are managed by a regional airport grants office. Call them and they will explain. There was a GAA Report few years back harshly criticizing FAA for allowing nonaviation businesses onto subsidized airports. A rented "storage locker" for anything is nonaviation. Taxpayer money is not to spent to develop a field for other than aeronautical activities. Period. Fred F. |
#27
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
FAA Order 5190.6A
FAA AC 150/5190-5 Airports are to be used for aviation. A hanger without an airplane, is not being used for aviation. FAA Grant Assurance Dollars are in jepordy if not using an airport for aviation. Normal hanger stuff like work benches, tables chairs, water should be allowed. That's not a couch, that is a pilot resting area between flights. That's not a couch, that is a pilot flight mission planning area. Put out a coffee table with charts and approach plates. Doesn't your airport have WiFi access for weather information? That's not a fridge, that's a storage locker for inflight survival items. BT "Tony Cox" wrote in message oups.com... At my home airport, we have a new airport manager who seems to be on a mission to eradicate anything but aircraft from leasehold hangars. He claims to have discovered FAA support for this position during his "on the job" training -- he is not a pilot, and has no prior aviation experience -- but he cannot come up with anything written. We pilots are, naturally, rather skeptical that the FAA has expressed an opinion one way or another. Hangars are all owner-financed (no FAA money), typically originally with a 30 year lease. It's a municipal airport, exclusively civilian use, and has in the past been the recipient of FAA grant money and will no doubt receive additional FAA funds in the future. There are roughly 100 "private" hangars (not commercial) at the airport. We're not a pt 139 airport -- some pt 135 sightseeing flights & that's all. Does anyone have any experience with airport managers, and/or rules and regulations that restrict what one can store in one's hangar? Our pilot community is concerned that our lifestyle is under threat -- historically, people have stored cars, RVs, boats, tables, chairs, sofas and all manner of toys and comfort items along with aircraft. Perhaps there is even someone out there who has a definitive ruling from the local FSDO... |
#28
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
BT wrote:
Airports are to be used for aviation. A hanger without an airplane, is not being used for aviation. Say I pull my plane out and go around the pattern a couple of times. Is my hangar still "being used for aviation?" What if I take my plane on a long vacation and the hangar is empty for several weeks? Is it still "being used for aviation?" Maybe I spend half the year in Florida and the other half in Minnisota. I always want my plane in a hangar, though, and can afford having two hangars, one of which will be empty at any point in time. Is the empty one still "used for aviation?" Say I am that rich guy. When I'm in Minnisota, I want to put the boat I own in Florida in storage. Could I put it in the hangar? No, that wouldn't "be for aviation." But, oddly enough, leaving it empty would be. Go figure. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR |
#29
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 06:43:06 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
wrote: BT wrote: Airports are to be used for aviation. A hanger without an airplane, is not being used for aviation. Say I pull my plane out and go around the pattern a couple of times. Is my hangar still "being used for aviation?" What if I take my plane on a long vacation and the hangar is empty for several weeks? Is it still "being used for aviation?" Maybe I spend half the year in Florida and the other half in Minnisota. I always want my plane in a hangar, though, and can afford having two hangars, one of which will be empty at any point in time. Is the empty one still "used for aviation?" Say I am that rich guy. When I'm in Minnisota, I want to put the boat I own in Florida in storage. Could I put it in the hangar? No, that wouldn't "be for aviation." But, oddly enough, leaving it empty would be. Go figure. At our airport, you'd be out of the hangar and one of the guys on the waiting list would be in it. Don |
#30
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Leasehold hangars and content restrictions
On 15 Nov 2006 13:21:30 -0800, "Tony Cox" wrote:
At my home airport, we have a new airport manager who seems to be on a mission to eradicate anything but aircraft from leasehold hangars. He claims to have discovered FAA support for this position during his "on the job" training -- he is not a pilot, and has no prior aviation experience -- but he cannot come up with anything written. We pilots are, naturally, rather skeptical that the FAA has expressed an opinion one way or another. Our hangars all have these clauses in the leases and they are in the airport rules. Hangars are all owner-financed (no FAA money), typically originally with a 30 year lease. It's a municipal airport, exclusively civilian use, and has in the past been the recipient of FAA grant money and will no doubt receive additional FAA funds in the future. There are roughly 100 "private" hangars (not commercial) at the airport. We're not a pt 139 airport -- some pt 135 sightseeing flights & that's all. Does anyone have any experience with airport managers, and/or rules and regulations that restrict what one can Here even though they have all that in the contracts, it's never been enforced nor has non FBO maintenance. Recently they had talked about "protecting" the FBO from the outside maintenance. I suggested they might want to avoid using those words as "protecting" the FBO is frowned on by the FAA. AOPA said that's treading on very thin ice. They've also said we can not stay overnight at our hangars, but I've never seen that enforced either. They also came up with a whole set of rules for the Ultra Lights, but they expected them to belong to a specific society, had to carry radios (good idea, but bad rule), specific traffic patterns and some other regs. They ended up throwing the whole thing out including the so called "through the fence" maintenance. I expect one of these days we will end up with a powered gate and cards, but we already have gates, chains, and locks. I have a key which I paid for. According to existing regs the gates are supposed to be closed and locked after either 7 or 8 PM. When I leave I lock up. Apparently I'm one of the very few as I've locked a few inside the fence a few times. After all they are supposed to have a key to be in there. The biggest problem with the gates is not the tenants, but airport personnel and snow removal equipment. Couple of times they've moved a few concrete pads and gate posts.:-)) If I see any one I usually check to make sure they have a key, but I'm not going to check in the hangars. It's a big place. store in one's hangar? Our pilot community is concerned that our lifestyle is under threat -- historically, people have stored cars, RVs, boats, tables, chairs, sofas and all manner of toys and comfort items along with aircraft. Perhaps there is even someone out there who has a definitive ruling from the local FSDO... Depends more on your city's rules and their insurance carrier. There are a lot of if's and's and but's. Rather than ask here I'd give the AOPA a call. They are going to ask what's in the contracts, what are the existing city regs, and what does their insurance carrier say. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
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