LX-4000, Ilec SB-8/ASR, or B-100 Flight Computer?

I have a functioning B-100 flight computer (version
1.1). My new ship (SZD-59) is equipped with an LX-4000.
The LX has integrated GPS and the B-100 takes a separate
unit (offhand that seems better since new GPS's kick
the crap out of early units) I also have an Ilec SB-8
with the ASR unit, that for 150 Euros can be upgraded
to the latest GPS driven ASR unit. Upgrading to the
SN10B or LX8000 etc is out of the question, and frankly
not necessary for my current set of skills so I am
not looking for upgrade recommendations like that (unless
someone wants to sell me one REAL cheap!) as much as
I am looking for advice on deciding between the three.
I'm leaning towards the Borgelt or the Ilec, but want
to hear opinions as to which one/ones and why. I'm
just beginning X-C, so user friendly is a real consideration
as well.
I know, I know, 50 pilots=60 opinions, but I still
want to know what others think since I do not have
enough first hand experience with any of them to determine
which would be best. Also, if the B-100 is the better
choice, which external (inexpensive) GPS should I get
to use with it?

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

On Nov 5, 8:15 pm, Paul Hanson
wrote:
I have a functioning B-100 flight computer (version
1.1). My new ship (SZD-59) is equipped with an LX-4000.
The LX has integrated GPS and the B-100 takes a separate
unit (offhand that seems better since new GPS's kick
the crap out of early units) I also have an Ilec SB-8
with the ASR unit, that for 150 Euros can be upgraded
to the latest GPS driven ASR unit. Upgrading to the
SN10B or LX8000 etc is out of the question, and frankly
not necessary for my current set of skills so I am
not looking for upgrade recommendations like that (unless
someone wants to sell me one REAL cheap!) as much as
I am looking for advice on deciding between the three.
Paul,
The most important thing is a good current wind determination. The
B-100 wind sucks, don't know about the LX-4000. I'm flying the SN-10
and knowing the current wind saves me on almost every flight. Wish I
had puchased it years ago, worth every penny, even at todays prices.
JJ

I'm leaning towards the Borgelt or the Ilec, but want
to hear opinions as to which one/ones and why. I'm
just beginning X-C, so user friendly is a real consideration
as well.
I know, I know, 50 pilots=60 opinions, but I still
want to know what others think since I do not have
enough first hand experience with any of them to determine
which would be best. Also, if the B-100 is the better
choice, which external (inexpensive) GPS should I get
to use with it?

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

On Nov 5, 8:15 pm, Paul Hanson
wrote:
I have a functioning B-100 flight computer (version
1.1). My new ship (SZD-59) is equipped with an LX-4000.
The LX has integrated GPS and the B-100 takes a separate
unit (offhand that seems better since new GPS's kick
the crap out of early units) I also have an Ilec SB-8
with the ASR unit, that for 150 Euros can be upgraded
to the latest GPS driven ASR unit. Upgrading to the
SN10B or LX8000 etc is out of the question, and frankly
not necessary for my current set of skills so I am
not looking for upgrade recommendations like that (unless
someone wants to sell me one REAL cheap!) as much as
I am looking for advice on deciding between the three.
I'm leaning towards the Borgelt or the Ilec, but want
to hear opinions as to which one/ones and why. I'm
just beginning X-C, so user friendly is a real consideration
as well.
I know, I know, 50 pilots=60 opinions, but I still
want to know what others think since I do not have
enough first hand experience with any of them to determine
which would be best. Also, if the B-100 is the better
choice, which external (inexpensive) GPS should I get
to use with it?

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

Paul,

I have found that the wind calculation on all the newer fligth
computers are excellent. CAI 302, Borgelt B500, LX7000, LX7007,
WinPilot, SeeYou Mobile, SN10. Software is what calculates the wind
not the instrument. Most instruments have pitot and temperature inputs
and I beleive all use calculation of wind from circling drift in a
theraml, course change, True Airspeed and GPS info. They all probably
use slightly different combinations of the inputs and use a different
formula. Comparing any of these systems to a B100 or a LX4000 is like
comparing apples and peas. WinPilot and SeeYou Mobile can be
connected to just a GPS and calculate the winds from circling drift in
your last thermal.

A good external GPS if you don't need a IGC data Logger is a Garmin
GPS 18.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Hi Paul,

I sell instruments - so take this with a grain of salt. But have you
considered that you may be able to get pretty good money selling the used
instruments - perhaps enough to buy a new one? Working with old hardware is
a lot of work and may or may not be worth it. The market for used soaring
instruments is pretty good. I often talk to customers that are spending a
lot of money trying to get old systems upgraded - and they never think of
the idea of selling the existing hardware to help pay for new instruments.

I do offer a free soaring classifieds web site that has helped many glider
pilots sell used instruments. You can see details he
http://www.soaring-classifieds.com

Just a thought...

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"Paul Hanson" wrote in message
...
I have a functioning B-100 flight computer (version
1.1). My new ship (SZD-59) is equipped with an LX-4000.
The LX has integrated GPS and the B-100 takes a separate
unit (offhand that seems better since new GPS's kick
the crap out of early units) I also have an Ilec SB-8
with the ASR unit, that for 150 Euros can be upgraded
to the latest GPS driven ASR unit. Upgrading to the
SN10B or LX8000 etc is out of the question, and frankly
not necessary for my current set of skills so I am
not looking for upgrade recommendations like that (unless
someone wants to sell me one REAL cheap!) as much as
I am looking for advice on deciding between the three.
I'm leaning towards the Borgelt or the Ilec, but want
to hear opinions as to which one/ones and why. I'm
just beginning X-C, so user friendly is a real consideration
as well.
I know, I know, 50 pilots=60 opinions, but I still
want to know what others think since I do not have
enough first hand experience with any of them to determine
which would be best. Also, if the B-100 is the better
choice, which external (inexpensive) GPS should I get
to use with it?

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

On Nov 5, 11:15 pm, Paul Hanson
wrote:
I have a functioning B-100 flight computer (version
1.1). My new ship (SZD-59) is equipped with an LX-4000.
The LX has integrated GPS and the B-100 takes a separate
unit (offhand that seems better since new GPS's kick
the crap out of early units) I also have an Ilec SB-8
with the ASR unit, that for 150 Euros can be upgraded
to the latest GPS driven ASR unit. Upgrading to the
SN10B or LX8000 etc is out of the question, and frankly
not necessary for my current set of skills so I am
not looking for upgrade recommendations like that (unless
someone wants to sell me one REAL cheap!) as much as
I am looking for advice on deciding between the three.
I'm leaning towards the Borgelt or the Ilec, but want
to hear opinions as to which one/ones and why. I'm
just beginning X-C, so user friendly is a real consideration
as well.
I know, I know, 50 pilots=60 opinions, but I still
want to know what others think since I do not have
enough first hand experience with any of them to determine
which would be best. Also, if the B-100 is the better
choice, which external (inexpensive) GPS should I get
to use with it?

Paul Hanson
"Do the usual, unusually well"--Len Niemi

One thing also to keep in mind that units with integrated GPS are more
"acceptable"
to IGC (record/badge/contest flights). Usually I fly with SoarPilot
on a PDA. When
I started flying cross country I just plugged it into a cheap handheld
Garmin. Now, I fly a nicer ship
that has an LX5000 installed. The user interface on the LX is
abominable, but it can drive
the PDA quite well, and I've managed to figure out enough on the LX to
be able to declare
goal flights in it (got the diamond on the first try this summer!).

-- Matt

On Nov 6, 10:30 pm, Richard wrote:
Software is what calculates the wind not the instrument.

More than 98% of the engineering content of a flight
computer is software. The instrument is in fact mostly
software. And the software is completely different
in the different instruments.

Most instruments have pitot and temperature inputs
and I beleive all use calculation of wind from circling drift in a
theraml, course change, True Airspeed and GPS info.

Incorrect. ILEC SN10 certainly does not require circling
to calculate wind; you'll often get a wind indication on
tow.

They all probably use slightly different combinations
of the inputs and use a different formula.

Right. So, talk to experienced XC pilots who have
*really* flown with these instruments, and find out which
ones are considered to produce reliable wind info.
Your mileage will vary. A lot.

Hope that's helpful,
Best Regards, Dave "YO"

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 6, 10:30 pm, Richard wrote:
Software is what calculates the wind not the instrument.

More than 98% of the engineering content of a flight
computer is software. The instrument is in fact mostly
software. And the software is completely different
in the different instruments.

Most instruments have pitot and temperature inputs
and I beleive all use calculation of wind from circling drift in a
theraml, course change, True Airspeed and GPS info.

Incorrect. ILEC SN10 certainly does not require circling
to calculate wind; you'll often get a wind indication on
tow.

They all probably use slightly different combinations
of the inputs and use a different formula.

Right. So, talk to experienced XC pilots who have
*really* flown with these instruments, and find out which
ones are considered to produce reliable wind info.
Your mileage will vary. A lot.

Hope that's helpful,
Best Regards, Dave "YO"


So how do you know for sure that a particular software produces accurate
wind data? It seems that any test would require accurate wind data
determined by some highly trusted independent method to compare with the
software output.

Bildan

Well, if I'm climbing on a ridge and the wind calculator tells me that I'm
on the lee side, I tend to think that the calculator is bull****ting me :-)
In mountain flying, good wind calculation is a precious help (notably when
conditions are marginal), and can be - relatively - easily tested.

Bert

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
So how do you know for sure that a particular software produces accurate
wind data? It seems that any test would require accurate wind data
determined by some highly trusted independent method to compare with the
software output.

Bildan

Well, having flown over the mountains and plains while listening to other
pilots reporting wind from all points of the compass, I've jotted down their
readings, my data and the time. Later I compared that to the data collected
by a real-time NOAA wind profiler 16NM away. Using the wind profiler as a
reference, all of our calculated winds aloft data were highly unreliable.
No one was better than the others and all were way off. The only useful
data was collected while circling and then only if the circles were perfect,
otherwise it's is a rough approximation..

To get accurate real-time wind data in flight you need four input variables,
ground track, ground speed, trufe airspeed, and true heading. The last is
because winds aloft data are referenced to true north. To date, all glide
software omits heading input.

Bill Daniels

"Bert Willing" wrote in message
...
Well, if I'm climbing on a ridge and the wind calculator tells me that I'm
on the lee side, I tend to think that the calculator is bull****ting me
:-)
In mountain flying, good wind calculation is a precious help (notably when
conditions are marginal), and can be - relatively - easily tested.

Bert

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..
So how do you know for sure that a particular software produces accurate
wind data? It seems that any test would require accurate wind data
determined by some highly trusted independent method to compare with the
software output.

Bildan

On Nov 7, 9:52 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
Well, having flown over the mountains and plains while listening to other
pilots reporting wind from all points of the compass, I've jotted down their
readings, my data and the time. Later I compared that to the data collected
by a real-time NOAA wind profiler 16NM away. Using the wind profiler as a
reference, all of our calculated winds aloft data were highly unreliable.
No one was better than the others and all were way off. The only useful
data was collected while circling and then only if the circles were perfect,
otherwise it's is a rough approximation..

To get accurate real-time wind data in flight you need four input variables,
ground track, ground speed, trufe airspeed, and true heading. The last is
because winds aloft data are referenced to true north. To date, all glide
software omits heading input.

Bill Daniels

"Bert Willing" wrote in message

...

Well, if I'm climbing on a ridge and the wind calculator tells me that I'm
on the lee side, I tend to think that the calculator is bull****ting me
:-)
In mountain flying, good wind calculation is a precious help (notably when
conditions are marginal), and can be - relatively - easily tested.

Bert

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...
So how do you know for sure that a particular software produces accurate
wind data? It seems that any test would require accurate wind data
determined by some highly trusted independent method to compare with the
software output.

Bildan

Actually several of the LX series have a fluxgate compass input for
just this reason. I have no experience using them.

I think a lot of wind calculations would be more reliable if people
understood what the devices are calculating, hwo they expire the
calculations, how to look at wind at different altitudes, how to reset
the wind calculations etc. I'm not suprised that voting across several
gliders yields near random results.

Darryl