Recommendations for accelerated instrument training NYC area

I am a 300+ hour private pilot living and flying in the NYC area
(specifically Caldwell NJ / Teterboro). I am interested in taking an
accelerated instrument course and have been attracted to the PIC 10 day
course and other similar 10 day courses. I already have about 10 hours
of simulator time and am familiar basics of partial panel instrument
and approach training. However I now want to complete my training in a
focused and intense training environment.

Can anyone recommend an excellent course in this area or others areas
around the country? I am particularly cost sensitive and would be most
interested in a complete course (aircraft time included) for less than
$7000.

Thanks!

Hi xxx (you didn't give a name)

Slight sarcasm intended, but this brings to mind a sign which I've
often seen in Automotive and TV/Radio repair shops...

Quick
Cheap
Good
---------
Pick two
---------
A good job quick won't be cheap
A good job cheap won't be quick
A quick job cheap won't be good

And you are in one of the highest cost areas in the nation...

Having said that...
I am a ~100 hr pilot currently working on my IA at American Flyers in
Cleveland. I will be looking at ~$9500 when finished, but it IS
QUICK and it IS GOOD.

I am using Part 141 'cuz GI Bill reimburses me 60%...and 141 tng tends
to be expensive. However, AF also do accelerated part 61 tng...and if
you already have your 50 hrs X-C...so much the better...and it will
cost you a lot less! Don't balk at the rates until you do the math!
These guys will work with you all day 7 days a week if you want.

To start, I took a week off work and did M-F, about 7 hours a day to
kick it off. That got me well over 1/3 of the way there. Should
have my IA rating by mid-March and going right into the Commercial.
Why? Why not?

BTW, Did you count the usual $300-500 in test prep material in your
$7000??? AF has their own...see if you can preview it first tho...I
think Sportys would be better...

Not sure how far this is, but might be worth checking out...

American Flyers
50 Airport Road, Suite 120
Morristown, NJ 07960
800-449-7650

Can't hurt to take a lesson or two, it's all log-able!

FYI, no affiliation, just a satisfied customer...

--Don

Don Byrer
Electronics Technician
FAA Airways Facilites/Tech Ops, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB
Private Pilot Instrument Student
PP-ASEL 30 Jan 2005

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am a 300+ hour private pilot living and flying in the NYC area
(specifically Caldwell NJ / Teterboro). I am interested in taking an
accelerated instrument course and have been attracted to the PIC 10 day
course and other similar 10 day courses. I already have about 10 hours
of simulator time and am familiar basics of partial panel instrument
and approach training. However I now want to complete my training in a
focused and intense training environment.

I suspect there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion on this subject. We
all learned a certain way, and those who are happy with the way we learned
will argue that it is the best.

Like you (I'm guessing) I was a busy professional motivated to get my IR
done and finished. The PIC concept appealed to me, but I ultimately chose to
work with a local instructor and took about 18 months and 55 hours to do it,
with probably half of that time being the usual friction of life.

In my mind, a big part of the question has to be whether you can link up
with a true CFII in your area. By this I don't mean a 500-hour graduate of
some ab-initio program, but someone with some serious time. A key question
to ask is whether they will take you up for training in actual conditions,
and what their comfort margins are. With 25 hours in, I was going up with my
CFII on days with 300-400' ceilings and 1mi vis. That's a good workout.

You may well not find anyone who fits this bill. It's not unlikely that the
guy you do find does not work for the local flight school as he has a list
of steady clients who keep him busy and pay $40/hr right into his pocket. If
you can't find such a fellow, then go ahead, go with PIC. I do not doubt
that they will teach you the procedures well, and that's what you need to
pass the test. There's no shame in that and if you're a 22yo kid who wants
an airline job it's probably the sensible approach.

But perhaps more so than any other rating, the difference between what you
need to pass the test and what you need to really use the rating well as a
private pilot is gigantic. My CFII believed that it was important to work on
the skills over 6-12 months so the procuedures got really imprinted into
your brain and allowed you to see a variety of conditions. This is doubly
true up here in the Northeast where you've really got three entirely
different climates to fly in. Again, if you have a CFII who won't fly when
the ceilings are below 1500', this doesn't make much difference.

Also, if you really want to use the rating, at least for the first year or
two you will want to do a lot of recurrent training. I try to fly
approaches, holds, etc. in actual with my CFII at least once every three
months. In this case it is good to have someone local who knows you (and
vice-versa) you can call on when you have some free time and the clouds roll
in. If you don't have the time to get the rating the old-fashioned way, do
you have the time to keep yourself proficient enough to use it?

Can anyone recommend an excellent course in this area or others areas
around the country? I am particularly cost sensitive and would be most
interested in a complete course (aircraft time included) for less than
$7000.

We all have a budget, but $7000 is pushing it a little, at least in the
Northeast where a plane + instructor will be at least $130/hour.

I'm just going to throw a few more cents in here... The IR is simply
*different* than all the others, because it's a license to take yourself in
harm's way. You can be a VFR private pilot, and as long as you follow some
pretty basic rules, probably never come anywhere close to grief, especially
if you stay proficient.

IFR flying is different. People on the ground looking up at a sky of fluffy
white clouds cannot appreciate just how harsh and unforgiving environment it
really is up there. With the right equipment and skills it can be challenged
safely most of the time. But if you really want to use the rating, you owe
it to yourself to train like your life depends on it, and there is simply no
cheap way to do so.

-cwk.

BTW, Did you count the usual $300-500 in test prep material in your
$7000??? AF has their own...see if you can preview it first tho...I
think Sportys would be better...

No reason to spend anywhere near that kind of money. The Sporty's and King DvD
courses are routinely available on eBay for 60-90% of their new price. Buy one,
use it and resell it. I actually made money on my Sporty's discs! Same story
on books, supplemental video tapes, ets. Everything is available and what you
don't like can be resold. Best value is to find a large package, keep what you
like and resell the rest.

Short, intense training can do the job. It's not what I did, but if I
had to do it over again, it is what I would do. It all really depends
on the person. It is more about what you do with the rating after you
get it, than the rating itself. In my case, I am a mature self learner,
who owns his own airplane. But either way will work. When you appear at
the intense course, they schedule your checkride. That has to tell you
something.

For me, flying IFR is mostly about worrying about something in the
airplane failing and dealing with ATC. Flying the approaches and
cruising in the clouds seems to go smoothly. Though the skills do
deteriorate. I am probably marginal right now for IMC. But I know my
limitations and can get back up to speed. I wouldn't fly a low approach
right now. But I would fly cruise in the clouds, and after about a 1/2
hour of that, I would up to speed for an approach. The autopilot in my
plane is broken right now, which doesn't mean I can't do it, but it
takes away some safety margin. Other than that, my equipment is all
working. I am still legal to go, currencywise. The decision to go
depends on the weather, the condition of the plane, my mental state, my
recent experience and how familiar I am with the route and will I know
what to expect from ATC. Add all those factors up and I get a go/nogo
indicator. I know enough to say no, which is important.

Baliman,
You may want to check out the East Coast IFR experience, 6-days of
intensive training for $6000
http://www.dsflight.com/eastcoast-ifr.html
We are both IFR students and are thinking of taking the course soon.

Hai Longworth

On 1 Mar 2005 07:31:10 -0800, "
wrote:

Baliman,
You may want to check out the East Coast IFR experience, 6-days of
intensive training for $6000
http://www.dsflight.com/eastcoast-ifr.html
We are both IFR students and are thinking of taking the course soon.

Hai Longworth


Well, it may be a great experience. And it may be worth the money.

But the way I read it, you are going to get about 15 hours of
intrument time over 6 days.

That's not what I would call "intensive".

And with another 25 hours of instrument time required on top of this
$6000, I wouldn't call it real cheap, either, compared to, say, a
10-day course with 20 hours of sim time at $40/hour and20 of an
aircraft @100/hour, and 80 hours of an instructor's time, say $3600,
and you got yourself a rating from scratch for less than $7000.

But they are totally different experiences, to be sure.

wrote:
I am a 300+ hour private pilot living and flying in the NYC area
(specifically Caldwell NJ / Teterboro). I am interested in taking
an
accelerated instrument course and have been attracted to the PIC 10
day
course and other similar 10 day courses.

You have already gotten a bunch of advice.

The most useful piece of advice you've gotten is this - quick, cheap,
good - pick two. I will modify that and say that you can pick AT MOST
two - you may get less. You won't get all three.

There is nothing inherently wrong with an accelerated course, except of
course it will not expose you to a wide range of weather. That's not
the end of the world - proper training will allow you to work your way
into flying weather withoug scaring yourself TOO badly - but it's not
optimal either.

Will you get proper training in an accelerated course? You may, but
you will have to pay through the nose for it.

If you want good instrument training, you won't get it from someone who
went through a zero-to-CFI/CFII/MEI course in 300 hours and then got
into the right seat of a trainer, where he has been ever since. There
is a lot to instrument flying that this sort of instructor isn't going
to know. The kind of pilot who WILL know it is someone who has done it
- a long time owner who has used his plane for transportation, a
freight dog, someone like that. Someone with that kind of experience
is not going to drop everything to train you for 10 days unless he is
well paid (think $500+ per day gross, or on salary). He might be
available to you on HIS schedule at the going rate if he's just doing
it part time because he enjoys it.

My understanding is that PIC actually uses experienced instrument
pilots as instructors (but I could be wrong here). I know for a fact
that American Flyers is using timebuilders. I know some of their
instructors and I've flown in IMC with some of their graduates, and I
am NOT impressed and would not recommend the operation.

Of course all this assumes that you're actually going to use the rating
to make IFR flights that can't be made under VFR. If you just plan to
use the rating procedurally or are getting it for professional reasons,
forget everything I've said and find the cheapest, fastest thing you
can.

Michael

As long as you don't mind using old versions. The instrument practical test
standards changed a few months back.


"Mitty" wrote in message
...

BTW, Did you count the usual $300-500 in test prep material in your
$7000??? AF has their own...see if you can preview it first tho...I
think Sportys would be better...

No reason to spend anywhere near that kind of money. The Sporty's and
King DvD courses are routinely available on eBay for 60-90% of their new
price...

wrote:
Will you get proper training in an accelerated course? You may, but
you will have to pay through the nose for it.

I would like to know what your basis is for this assertion.

Simple economics. Teaching an accelerated course isn't something that
you can do in your spare time (as opposed to teaching a non-accelerated
course, which is something many pilots do in their spare time) and
hiring someone who is actually qualified to teach IFR flying (as
opposed to passing an instrument checkride) to do so full time in
piston singles is going to be expensive, since those hours don't
contribute to career advancement.

Could you provide some data which show the comparative costs of
accelerated courses, versus non-accelerated?

Yes. PIC (which is basically the gold standard of these courses, and
employs instructors with thousands, not hundreds, of hours) costs
$4000, plus travel and accomodation expenses for the instructor. This
does not include aircraft costs. By comparison, the local FBO charges
$33/hr.

Presumably you have data that show some kind of average of the total
hours of instruction which one requires under the respective modes,
in order to make a fair comparison.

Our local FBO charges $25/hr for the simulator, which is typical. So
let's knock off $500 from the $4000 charge. At $33/hr, we're looking
at paying for 100+ hours of dual before we hit $3500, and we haven't
even started on the accomodations or travel costs.

You think 100+ hours of dual is average? I sure don't. In fact, I've
NEVER seen it take that long.

Not saying it's not worth it - just that it's expensive.

Michael