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#1
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Two seater CG question
Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the same minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat?
The rear seat moment arm has about 1/4th the effect compared to the front, so I would think a 200 pounder in the rear would reduce the front min weight by 50 pounds - nicht wahr? Maybe the numbers are based on a super cautious approach for situations like an instructor jumping out when the student solos and forgetting to recompute the cg? |
#2
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Two seater CG question
Karl,
I really believe this is just reflective of the manufacturer's preference to compose some simple weight and balance rules, rather than trust the unwashed and unlearned pilot to do any computations. Unless you ballast the wings, the loading rule is simple: something like 70kg minimum (depends on the individual aircraft) on the front seat , and a max of 110 kg on either seat. Easy to remember. Not totally representative of the physics involved. Of course this leads to some strange situations. If you have a 110kg guy in the back and a 69 kg person in the front, the glider isn't legal to fly (ignoring the front seat trim weights). But add 1 more kg in the front, and you can put something like 8 liters in the tail! Some other German manufacturers like this same approach -- rules instead of computations. |
#3
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Two seater CG question
IIRC The POH for the Janus C does actually show the computations for reducing the front seat min pilot weight based on the weight of the back seat pilot.
I agree with the previous post that many manufactures may believe in the KISS standard to keep pilots from flying with the CG aft of limits. BillT |
#4
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Two seater CG question
On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 12:52:29 PM UTC+12, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the same minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat? Yeah, I think it's just a CYA thing. Even if the CofG works out the same with heavy in the back and light in the front, the 2nd moment will be different which might affect things such as spin recovery. I'd have thought it would make it *easier* to recover, but it will certainly be different. Our DG1000s also have 68 kg placarded front seat minimum regardless of back seat, but I don't go putting weights in the front unless the student looks under 50 kilos (I'm 120ish). And I'm still invariably trimming back from the 2/3 forward takeoff position once settled into the tow. In theory the moments say down to about 40 in front should be ok, but I'm not quite that game |
#5
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Two seater CG question
I don't know, but maybe it could be an issue with the moment of
inertia? That might affect the spin behavior, and is a parameter separate from CG. My personal guess, is that there is no reason for the rule. It may be like the reply that the British Tax office once gave to a question about their tax rules: "There is no reason for this rule, it is simply our policy" At 02:52 04 June 2014, Bruce Hoult wrote: On Wednesday, June 4, 2014 12:52:29 PM UTC+12, Karl Striedieck wrote: Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the sam= e minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat? |
#6
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Two seater CG question
On Tuesday, June 3, 2014 6:52:29 PM UTC-6, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the same minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat? The rear seat moment arm has about 1/4th the effect compared to the front, so I would think a 200 pounder in the rear would reduce the front min weight by 50 pounds - nicht wahr? Maybe the numbers are based on a super cautious approach for situations like an instructor jumping out when the student solos and forgetting to recompute the cg? I believe it specified in JAR-22 as the design minimum-minimum seat load, just as 110kg was specified as the design minimum-maximum seat load. Not based on CG limits. I recall a conversation about flying a G-103 from the rear seat with the front seat empty and still being with CG limits. That said, you can read all about it in CS-22 (formerly JAR-22) http://easa.europa.eu/system/files/d...20Amdt%202.pdf or from the link here http://easa.europa.eu/document-libra...22-amendment-2 See paras 22.21 through 22.31. Frank Whiteley |
#7
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Two seater CG question
Hi Karl, I think the reason is that EASA airworthiness requirements
stipulate a maximum allowable figure for the minimum cockpit load. Manufacturers make sure that their glider complies with this and then placard that maximum figure instead of bothering to work out the actual figure for all cases. Some years back I took delivery of a new DG500, it was placarded minimum front cockpit load 75 Kg (I think that was the figure, it was a while ago). On weighing, and checking the C of G limits in the flight manual, we found that a big pilot would actually be within limits flying solo in the rear cockpit! At 00:52 04 June 2014, Karl Striedieck wrote: Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the same minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat? The rear seat moment arm has about 1/4th the effect compared to the front, so I would think a 200 pounder in the rear would reduce the front min weight by 50 pounds - nicht wahr? Maybe the numbers are based on a super cautious approach for situations like an instructor jumping out when the student solos and forgetting to recompute the cg? |
#8
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Two seater CG question
All computations aside (and most of them are probably very correct), why
not just use the recommended minimum weight from the manufacturer as an actual minimum? Spoke to a pilot the other day who didn't, because his computations showed less was also possible and ballast weights were not readily available. Got into an unintentional spin that flattened out rapidly and from which he recovered at only 300 feet, just enough for a flare and off-field landing. My point: stay well on the safe side, and don't make a habit out of undershooting the minimum recommended weight limits... Just because it is possible to do things, doesn't mean you have to. ;-) |
#9
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Two seater CG question
At 00:52 04 June 2014, Karl Striedieck wrote:
Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the same minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat? The rear seat moment arm has about 1/4th the effect compared to the front, so I would think a 200 pounder in the rear would reduce the front min weight by 50 pounds - nicht wahr? Maybe the numbers are based on a super cautious approach for situations like an instructor jumping out when the student solos and forgetting to recompute the cg? My guess....The European High Command, EASA, has a strict definition for the format of the placard that MUST go in the cockpit. This has a space for only one configuration. If Shempp were to alter this it would make the aircraft unsafe to fly in Europe. Jim |
#10
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Two seater CG question
Instructions for reducing min front seat load when flying with
both seats occupied are in the manuals for the newer Duo X, Arcus and through optional TN 295-29 for Janus. Maybe it's also in the revision 9 for Duo FM, but the download link on S-H website doesn't work. Ask S-H, and they will probably solve it. Regarding blaming EASA, I think it's actually the opposite, german LBA had very restrictive view on complicated load instructions, but EASA seems to accept this. Also the ASK 21 has a corresponding TN nr 35, where the reduction is allowed in the german and UK-flagged manual pages, but not in the US-flagged. So maybe the FAA is to blame? Bengt At 07:55 04 June 2014, Jim White wrote: At 00:52 04 June 2014, Karl Striedieck wrote: Anyone know why the Duo (and supposedly other Doppelsetzers) have the same minimum front seat weight with or without a person in the back seat? The rear seat moment arm has about 1/4th the effect compared to the front, so I would think a 200 pounder in the rear would reduce the front min weight by 50 pounds - nicht wahr? Maybe the numbers are based on a super cautious approach for situations like an instructor jumping out when the student solos and forgetting to recompute the cg? My guess....The European High Command, EASA, has a strict definition for the format of the placard that MUST go in the cockpit. This has a space for only one configuration. If Shempp were to alter this it would make the aircraft unsafe to fly in Europe. Jim |
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