Manufacturers And Training

Reading one of the piloting web/video services and came across this
comment:

"Still; there remains the specter of trouble ahead... as most of the
better offerings at the USSAE (LSA aircraft) cost well over 100K... and
we're not sure that there is a sustainable market for aircraft in that
price range. Much has been written about the need to bring "new blood"
into the aviation business... how we need new pilots and a way to
provide ready access to the freedom of the skies for tall those who have
dreamed of playing among the clouds. We desperately need a
cost-effective path for people to follow to stretch their wings... but
to be honest, we're not sure that 100-130K LSAs are the ticket we've
been looking for. BUT... there was NO mistaking the excitement of so
many people we met at Sebring."

I understand not every new pilot is a plane purchaser. But where is the
effort of the manufacturers especially Cessna, Diamond, Piper and the
others in making piloting instruction cheap if not free? Not free as in
"if you buy my plane" but free as in "long term, self-interested
investment in aviation."

On Jan 2, 10:27*am, Gezellig wrote:
Reading one of the piloting web/video services and came across this
comment:

"Still; there remains the specter of trouble ahead... as most of the
better offerings at the USSAE (LSA aircraft) cost well over 100K... and
we're not sure that there is a sustainable market for aircraft in that
price range. Much has been written about the need to bring "new blood"
into the aviation business... how we need new pilots and a way to
provide ready access to the freedom of the skies for tall those who have
dreamed of playing among the clouds. We desperately need a
cost-effective path for people to follow to stretch their wings... but
to be honest, we're not sure that 100-130K LSAs are the ticket we've
been looking for. BUT... there was NO mistaking the excitement of so
many people we met at Sebring."

I understand not every new pilot is a plane purchaser. But where is the
effort of the manufacturers especially Cessna, Diamond, Piper and the
others in making piloting instruction cheap if not free? Not free as in
"if you buy my plane" but free as in "long term, self-interested
investment in aviation."

Both Piper and Cessna have tried marketing programs designed to
encourage new entries into the market, and both have met with limited
success.
The economic situation in the United States will now most likely
result in a paradigm shift for the light aircraft market.
Actually it's been happening ahead of the economic turn down; i.e; the
light sport aircraft market.
It's very difficult at this point to forecast where the GA market will
go from here. Between the national security regulations limiting GA to
some extent, and the economy, the future may very well be the
ultralight for the average Sunday pilot.
But who really knows? The above would be a fair cross section of what
I get in feedback as I move through the aviation world in the United
States.
Dudley Henriques

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:06:53 -0800 (PST), Dudley Henriques wrote:

Both Piper and Cessna have tried marketing programs designed to
encourage new entries into the market, and both have met with limited
success.
The economic situation in the United States will now most likely
result in a paradigm shift for the light aircraft market.
Actually it's been happening ahead of the economic turn down; i.e; the
light sport aircraft market.
It's very difficult at this point to forecast where the GA market will
go from here. Between the national security regulations limiting GA to
some extent, and the economy, the future may very well be the
ultralight for the average Sunday pilot.
But who really knows? The above would be a fair cross section of what
I get in feedback as I move through the aviation world in the United
States.
Dudley Henriques

Questions:

1) Do you believe there is a concerted effort, one tool of which is the
flight and pax filings in advance of any GA flight, to choke GA?
Specifically, the single/twin engine, piston, GA business and
recreational pilot (who can travel intra/interstate for several hundred
miles)?

2) Will this effort spill over to the EXP market?

3) If CFI training as we know it, low wages, decreasing students, does
not change, are aviation schools becoming fewer and fewer?

On Jan 2, 11:29*pm, Gezellig wrote:
On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:06:53 -0800 (PST), Dudley Henriques wrote:
Both Piper and Cessna have tried marketing programs designed to
encourage new entries into the market, and both have met with limited
success.
The economic situation in the United States will now most likely
result in a paradigm shift for the light aircraft market.
Actually it's been happening ahead of the economic turn down; i.e; the
light sport aircraft market.
It's very difficult at this point to forecast where the GA market will
go from here. Between the national security regulations limiting GA to
some extent, and the economy, the future may very well be the
ultralight for the average Sunday pilot.
But who really knows? The above would be a fair cross section of what
I get in feedback as I move through the aviation world in the United
States.
Dudley Henriques

Questions:

1) Do you believe there is a concerted effort, one tool of which is the
flight and pax filings in advance of any GA flight, to choke GA?
Specifically, the single/twin engine, piston, GA business and
recreational pilot (who can travel intra/interstate for several hundred
miles)?

2) Will this effort spill over to the EXP market?

3) If CFI training as we know it, low wages, decreasing students, does
not change, are aviation schools becoming fewer and fewer?

In my opinion there is no concentrated effort (conspiracy) to end GA,
but the list of negative factors combining to produce a downward trend
for the community all around is in my opinion quite extensive.

I can speak directly to the CFI question as I deal in this venue every
day.
The salary structure for CFI's unfortunately for the most part anyway,
for a long time now, has been geared toward the part timer as opposed
to the full time professional. The exact ramifications of this
situation and its effect on GA is beyond the limits of a mere posting
to a forum, but I will say I find the situation a negative in any
overall evaluation of the GA situation.

GA is definitely in for a hard road ahead in my opinion. The extremely
high costs vs the limited public access and required training can hold
few positive aspects for the community considering the current
economic situation.
Just my opinion of course.

Dudley Henriques wrote:


GA is definitely in for a hard road ahead in my opinion. The extremely
high costs vs the limited public access and required training can hold
few positive aspects for the community considering the current
economic situation.
Just my opinion of course.

GA paints too broad of a brush. Light aircraft GA (that's what's being
discussed here) has been on a downward spiral that started long before
the current economic downturn. The exception is the "fat cat" market of
the very affluent who flock to the new $500,000 range single engine
aircraft.

The LSA market is too expensive and the Draconian maintenance control
the manufacturer has is extreme.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Dudley Henriques wrote:


GA is definitely in for a hard road ahead in my opinion. The extremely
high costs vs the limited public access and required training can hold
few positive aspects for the community considering the current
economic situation.
Just my opinion of course.

GA paints too broad of a brush. Light aircraft GA (that's what's being
discussed here) has been on a downward spiral that started long before the
current economic downturn. The exception is the "fat cat" market of the
very affluent who flock to the new $500,000 range single engine aircraft.

The LSA market is too expensive and the Draconian maintenance control the
manufacturer has is extreme.

At the risk of seeming to be a PITA, 500K aint "fat cat" market in aviation!

The good news is that ANY homebuilt that fits the weight and performance
specs for LSA, as well as any certificated aircraft that happens to meet the
specs, automatically qualifies for operation by a sport pilot. There is no
need for it to have been sold as an ELSA--which is mostly a way for the
operator to trade maintenance requirements against the 51% rule without
busting any regs.

I admit to having been extremely critical of the 600KG weight limit, which I
still assert should have been 750KG, but how are the LSA manufacturers
different than the manufacturers of any other certified aircraft?

Peter

Peter Dohm wrote:

At the risk of seeming to be a PITA, 500K aint "fat cat" market in aviation!

It sure is in the realm of light aircraft; i.e. personal flying.

GA is definitely in for a hard road ahead in my opinion. The extremely
high costs vs the limited public access and required training can hold
few positive aspects for the community considering the current
economic situation.

Last week our airport's FBO (Jet Air, Inc.) spun off its aircraft rental and
pilot training operation -- lock, stock, and barrel -- to another company
(Iowa Flight Training). This is a new twist (as far as I can tell) in that
the FBO is dumping (what it perceives to be) a money-losing operation onto a
completely separate organization.

Both companies are pleased with this arrangement, and (IMHO) it could work
out to everyone's advantage. It will be interesting to see (a) how our
airport commission handles this (it's always been a requirement that the FBO
provides flight training -- but it didn't specify precisely *how* this was
accomplished), and (b) how successful a dedicated flight school can be when
compared to the traditional FBO model.

Our FBO has always said that flight training and aircraft rental was like an
anchor around their necks, dragging them down financially. I sure hope the
new folks do not discover this to be true, or this new arrangement may be
short-lived.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Jan 7, 2:00*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
GA is definitely in for a hard road ahead in my opinion. The extremely
high costs vs the limited public access and required training can hold
few positive aspects for the community considering the current
economic situation.

Last week our airport's FBO (Jet Air, Inc.) spun off its aircraft rental and
pilot training operation -- lock, stock, and barrel -- to another company
(Iowa Flight Training). *This is a new twist (as far as I can tell) in that
the FBO is dumping (what it perceives to be) a money-losing operation onto a
completely separate organization.

Both companies are pleased with this arrangement, and (IMHO) it could work
out to everyone's advantage. *It will be interesting to see (a) how our
airport commission handles this (it's always been a requirement that the FBO
provides flight training -- but it didn't specify precisely *how* this was
accomplished), and (b) how successful a dedicated flight school can be when
compared to the traditional FBO model.

Our FBO has always said that flight training and aircraft rental was like an
anchor around their necks, dragging them down financially. *I sure hope the
new folks do not discover this to be true, or this new arrangement may be
short-lived.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In most areas of the country, and farming areas may be excluded,
marketing what might be considered to be a hobby that costs in the
three digits an hour to learn would be a hard sell in this economy. On
the other hand, farmers with silos full of soy are smiling broadly. If
the economy in your local area is in decline, stock in that company
would be worth selling short.

I do hope they do well.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:hZ69l.459303$TT4.400839@attbi_s22:

GA is definitely in for a hard road ahead in my opinion. The extremely
high costs vs the limited public access and required training can hold
few positive aspects for the community considering the current
economic situation.

Last week our airport's FBO (Jet Air, Inc.) spun off its aircraft
rental and pilot training operation -- lock, stock, and barrel -- to
another company (Iowa Flight Training). This is a new twist (as far
as I can tell) in that the FBO is dumping (what it perceives to be) a
money-losing operation onto a completely separate organization.

Both companies are pleased with this arrangement, and (IMHO) it could
work out to everyone's advantage. It will be interesting to see (a)
how our airport commission handles this (it's always been a
requirement that the FBO provides flight training -- but it didn't
specify precisely *how* this was accomplished), and (b) how successful
a dedicated flight school can be when compared to the traditional FBO
model.

Our FBO has always said that flight training and aircraft rental was
like an anchor around their necks, dragging them down financially. I
sure hope the new folks do not discover this to be true, or this new
arrangement may be short-lived.

Oh go **** yourself idiot boi

Aviation susrvived the depression it will survive this as long as someone
wants to fly.


Hopefully your flea pit won't though.

Bertie