Cheap sailplanes

The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily halt
the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a few
percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian

"tango4" wrote in message
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we
could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline
in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry
into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we came
up
with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than temporarily
halt
the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a
gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each
year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the rest
of
the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the scholarships,
just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few
percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian


I'll second that.

Maybe take a look at what the Europeans are doing. They seem to attract a
lot of youth to soaring.

Bill Daniels

I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and those
"because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts have to
be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if we
came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as joining
a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian

Bert Willing wrote:
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets the
money for anyways.

And you live in a completely unrealistic world. In our world in Europe,
the vast majority of youngsters don't have the money for skiing, horse
riding, etc. Anyways my kids didn't have the money to do anything of
that sort, and still i have a reasonably good job, and so does my wife.
You should stop thinking anyone is a medical doctor or a lawyer earning
several hundred thousand dollars a year. Another thing i can add is that
when i was young myself i could afford flying gliders, and even power
flying. Things have considerably degraded, and your arguments that even
with zero cost, gliding would continue do decline is complete bull****.



--

Michel TALON

When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24 years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.

Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Bert Willing wrote:
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the
money for anyways.

And you live in a completely unrealistic world. In our world in Europe,
the vast majority of youngsters don't have the money for skiing, horse
riding, etc. Anyways my kids didn't have the money to do anything of
that sort, and still i have a reasonably good job, and so does my wife.
You should stop thinking anyone is a medical doctor or a lawyer earning
several hundred thousand dollars a year. Another thing i can add is that
when i was young myself i could afford flying gliders, and even power
flying. Things have considerably degraded, and your arguments that even
with zero cost, gliding would continue do decline is complete bull****.



--

Michel TALON

Bert Willing wrote:
When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24 years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

Yes, when i was young, clubs had special prices for young people, and
there were even aids for power flying. I remember that when i began
gliding, launches were 30F, that is around 5$, now they are around 20
euros. Even at that time a lot of "blue collar" people who had been
active in the gliding community were leaving because it was too
expensive.


It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.


Fine, this is what i have heard several times here, but this is clearly
not the case in France. If i look at the fleet of a club i like near
Paris, Buno-Bonnevaux, there is still a large number of Pegases, and
not many expensive gliders. However the prices are very far from what
you describe in Germany. If i look at the fleet at a well known club in
the alps, Sisteron, both the gliders are quite old, and the prices are
outrageous.


Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.


Salaries did not go up very much in the last 20 years, or at least in
the last 10 years. In fact they are very close to stationnary in the
last 10 years. So you wonder that a 25 years old glider which is
basically no more performing than a Pegase is still 30k euros?
Personnally i think such a price is absolutely scandalous, it is
basically a one year income for an academic staff, a software engineer,
etc. As i said, you should be conscient that salaries in the 100k
dollars are absolutely exceptional here. People accept to spend
100-200 k$ for something vital and durable, a house, but for nothing
else.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)


Which means that my family income would be divided by two because my
wife would be out of job. I know the story i have lived in Montpellier.
It would be an excellent way to make economies :-(


--

Michel TALON

You can't compare prices in the Southern Alps with regular clubs. One of the
main differences between French clubs and German clubs is that in Germany,
there are no employees in a club, and so no salaries to pay. The drawback is
of course weekend operation only (well I for my part have to work during the
week anyways...).

And if you don't like the second hand prices for an ASW20, you can always go
for an ASW20F :-)) Or get one or two syndicate partners as I do.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Bert Willing wrote:
When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24
years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

Yes, when i was young, clubs had special prices for young people, and
there were even aids for power flying. I remember that when i began
gliding, launches were 30F, that is around 5$, now they are around 20
euros. Even at that time a lot of "blue collar" people who had been
active in the gliding community were leaving because it was too
expensive.


It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices
in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.


Fine, this is what i have heard several times here, but this is clearly
not the case in France. If i look at the fleet of a club i like near
Paris, Buno-Bonnevaux, there is still a large number of Pegases, and
not many expensive gliders. However the prices are very far from what
you describe in Germany. If i look at the fleet at a well known club in
the alps, Sisteron, both the gliders are quite old, and the prices are
outrageous.


Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do
have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.


Salaries did not go up very much in the last 20 years, or at least in
the last 10 years. In fact they are very close to stationnary in the
last 10 years. So you wonder that a 25 years old glider which is
basically no more performing than a Pegase is still 30k euros?
Personnally i think such a price is absolutely scandalous, it is
basically a one year income for an academic staff, a software engineer,
etc. As i said, you should be conscient that salaries in the 100k
dollars are absolutely exceptional here. People accept to spend
100-200 k$ for something vital and durable, a house, but for nothing
else.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)


Which means that my family income would be divided by two because my
wife would be out of job. I know the story i have lived in Montpellier.
It would be an excellent way to make economies :-(


--

Michel TALON

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
soaring population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
have to be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting
dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian







Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4

"Peter Seddon" wrote in message
...

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this 2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the
soaring population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring,
not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the money for anyways.

As you said, we need a new approach - at least the ration "airborne
time/time running around on the field" has to be greatly improved, and
those "because-we-have-done-it-like-this-for-the-last-fifty-years" farts
have to be dumped...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"tango4" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
The 'which glider should we make cheaply' , 'glider classes' and some
of
the traditional 'winter threads' seem to be based on the premise that
if
we could build a 40:1 sailplane for some nominal amount then the steady
decline in worldwide sailplane pilot numbers can be stemmed.

I am yet to be convinced that aircraft cost is the major threshold to
entry into the sport of soaring. I remain firmly convinced that even if
we came up with a near zero cost aircraft we would do little more than
temporarily halt the decline.

In the UK annual membership of a golf club costs about the same as
joining a gliding club and flying club ships for the same period.

Ditto for a dinghy sailing club - based on joining a club and renting

dingies.

Our club runs a 'scholarship' incentive for a number of student pilots
each year, basically they fly for free, their bills being carried by
the
rest of the membership. We don't have hundreds of applicants for the
scholarships, just sufficient.

Most operations have a continuous stream of intro riders, the
conversion
rate to sailplane pilots is astonishingly low though, in the order of a
few percent.

Todays youth have more disposable income than most of us could ever
have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are likely to have more
leisure time and even more money. Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather than sticking
with
the old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every club committee
member on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps, wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into the
21st century. Us old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
if
you ask me.

We need a new approach.

Ian







Put the gin and tonic down sweetie and join the real world, gliding is
VERY
frustrating, we all dont have thermals at our beck and call. The last
three
years have been abizmal for flying. I have to travel 50 miles to the club
so
if ti's not a decent day there are other thing to do that can take
precedent. Our club is one of the least expensive in the UK but our
membership is dropping and it's all down to the lousey weather we've been
having. Mosxt young people get their thrils from two or four wheels, where
you just get in and turn the key and off you go. Instant gratification is
what keeps the young comming back for more, you don't get that at a
gliding
club, until you can fly solo!!!

Peter.

Pilatus B4



Go watch Hellingvliegen (Dune gliding) by Nistal Wloczysiak a 17 year old
Dutch Videographer. They winch launch an open cockpit T-31b in the dead of
winter to ridge soar the dunes on the Dutch coast. It's one beautiful
video. Weather isn't stopping youth from participating.

I see plenty of young people that LOVE gliding but can't afford it even with
their parents solid support.

We need to offer youth winch launch and other cost reduction avenues.
Wringing our hands and whining that the sky is falling isn't solving the
problem.

We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.

Bill Daniels

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:22:40 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:



We also need to stop pigeonholing young people. They come in all levels of
interest. Not all of them are into video games and hot rods. A wonderful
few really love soaring.

We need to stop driving them away.

Extremely well said, Bill.

Lennie (Surprised?)