When are thermals not circular and do thermal helpers assume thatthey are?

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:51:44 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others - are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a thermal assistant.

I have SYM, XCSoar, Winpilot Pro and Adv, LK8000 all loaded on the Avier, all accepting the same input from the Butterfly including GPS and barometric data. I also have Winpilot iOS and iGlide Pro on the iPhone. Very shortly I will have these connected to the Butterfly for GPS and barometric data as well. I have tried them all, often switching between them on the same flight in the same conditions. (I don't need to look out of the cockpit - I have Flarm and an AH ). SYM and XCSoar (and its derivatives) have more features than Winpilot - but for the most part I don't find those features particularly useful. The Winpilot Pro thermal assistant simply works better than the others. I would not bother to use the others, frankly. I think the reason thermal assistants have gotten a bad reputation is from those not using the Winpilot version. The others don't appear when you want them, aren't useful once they appear, and don't dismiss themselves in a timely fashion when you are done.

Even Naviter doesn't believe in their version. Directly quoted from the manual: "We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)". I agree with them, for their version.

The other main difference between Winpilot and the other PDA software is that the Winpilot authors have had some experience in man-machine interaction.. The UI is more concise and considers the cockpit environment.

Now regarding head down time with all this junk in the cockpit. They are distractions, but the extent of the distraction depends to a great extent on the presentation and user interface. The Winpilot thermal assistant requires about a half second glance a couple of times each circle while you are attempting to center. There is no reason to study it. There is no interaction required to call it up or dismiss it. In contrast, try to insert a waypoint in SYM or XCSoar while you are thermaling (or even cruising). Now there is some head down time. The Avier/V2/Oudie do not make this any easier with its poor touchscreen.

The iOS offerings seem to have made a leap in UI. Both Winpilot iOS and iGlide have significantly better user interfaces than any of the PDA offerings.. You can simply do a lot more with a lot less attention. However both products are not really feature complete yet - for example neither has a thermal assistant - but they are getting pretty close.

I did not realise that the Butterfly was competible with WinPilot Pro?
One of the short comings of WP is the lack of compability with most newer flight computers.
6PK

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:49:06 PM UTC-7, Peter Kovari wrote:
I did not realise that the Butterfly was competible with WinPilot Pro?

One of the short comings of WP is the lack of compability with most newer flight computers.

6PK

The Butterfly emulates an LX or CAI302 (for the most part) so Winpilot does work. I would contact Winpilot and ask - he may have a special version that omits the initialization sequences (which the Butterfly ignores and can cause problems with Flarm installed). The regular Avier 12.5 will run if you set the Butterfly to LX output and turn off Flarm sentences.

The just posted Winpilot iOS manual update says it explicitly supports the Butterfly in an upcoming release.

WinPilot PRO for Avier that is now on WinPilot.com is compatible with the Butterfly vario.
To enable Butterfly support, please go into Menu.About.Hardware and enable 'Butterfly Vario'.

Also, we have added support for Butterly vario to our WinPilot for iOS version.

Anybody who has a mini-iPad or iPhone and a Butterly vario with their 'WiFi Dongle' device please contact us for a free version for WinPilot for iOS to test it.

People who have other flight computers can now connect to WinPilot for iOS version 1.63 or newer wirelessly by using this device:
http://www.butterfly-avionics.com/in...ect-ipadiphone

winpilot team

Here is the corrected link for the connection module for WinPilot for iOS:

http://www.butterfly-avionics.com/in...rbindungsmodul

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 5:10:03 PM UTC-5, WinPilot wrote:
Here is the corrected link for the connection module for WinPilot for iOS:



http://www.butterfly-avionics.com/in...rbindungsmodul

Team Winpilot,
Since this has become a place to discuss my favorite soaring software, two requests for the Avier/Vertica version: Please make it easier to change the zoom level through gestures or taps and secondly, bring back the 4 "hardware buttons" from the IPAQ that engaged often used functions such as Task Manager, Statistics, Map Display etc. Just use some screen space at the bottom for those buttons.
Thanks,
Herb

I ditto that. 6PK

On Monday, July 29, 2013 10:00:11 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

Think plumes.
http://www.rcsoaring.com/docs/thermals_2006.pdf

On Monday, July 29, 2013 12:00:11 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
I'm starting to think that the textbook circular thermal is primarily a flatland phenomena.

Perhaps but since we usually fly in a circle anyways in a thermal, does it matter all that much? I've love to thermal in a trapezoid but I think it would make it really hard for those in the same thermal.

Some really good points here about thermal assistants, thanks.

Even Naviter doesn't believe in their version

Good point and largely true. For this reason the visual aspects of the Thermal assistant have been completely redesigned for the version which has been released earlier today (SeeYou Mobile 4.50). More about it (and other news) he
http://www.naviter.com/2013/08/new-v...and-new-logos/

There's also a discussion on a same/similar topic he
http://forum.naviter.com/threads/494...-with-my-Moves

I dare to say that accurate thermal assistants are a myth and that head down time during circling is a waste unless you are consciously learning a particular technique. At the same time - I do keep the "ding ding" thermal assistant active most of the time. Mainly because at times I become useless when I am talking on the radio, looking at my landing options or become plain old tired. That's when the thermal assistant's "ding ding" is usually right and very useful.

Regards,
Andrej Kolar
--
glider pilots use
http://www.Naviter.com

On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 6:38:56 PM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:51:44 AM UTC-7, waremark wrote:

You guys who find the WP thermal assistant so much better than others - are you running them on the same hardware with the same inputs? I hope you are not basing any comments on an Oudie using its internal GPS because it is known that the info from the internal GPS is not good enough for a thermal assistant.



I have SYM, XCSoar, Winpilot Pro and Adv, LK8000 all loaded on the Avier, all accepting the same input from the Butterfly including GPS and barometric data. I also have Winpilot iOS and iGlide Pro on the iPhone. Very shortly I will have these connected to the Butterfly for GPS and barometric data as well. I have tried them all, often switching between them on the same flight in the same conditions. (I don't need to look out of the cockpit - I have Flarm and an AH ). SYM and XCSoar (and its derivatives) have more features than Winpilot - but for the most part I don't find those features particularly useful. The Winpilot Pro thermal assistant simply works better than the others. I would not bother to use the others, frankly. I think the reason thermal assistants have gotten a bad reputation is from those not using the Winpilot version. The others don't appear when you want them, aren't useful once they appear, and don't dismiss themselves in a timely fashion when you are done.



Even Naviter doesn't believe in their version. Directly quoted from the manual: "We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)". I agree with them, for their version.



The other main difference between Winpilot and the other PDA software is that the Winpilot authors have had some experience in man-machine interaction. The UI is more concise and considers the cockpit environment.



Now regarding head down time with all this junk in the cockpit. They are distractions, but the extent of the distraction depends to a great extent on the presentation and user interface. The Winpilot thermal assistant requires about a half second glance a couple of times each circle while you are attempting to center. There is no reason to study it. There is no interaction required to call it up or dismiss it. In contrast, try to insert a waypoint in SYM or XCSoar while you are thermaling (or even cruising). Now there is some head down time. The Avier/V2/Oudie do not make this any easier with its poor touchscreen.



The iOS offerings seem to have made a leap in UI. Both Winpilot iOS and iGlide have significantly better user interfaces than any of the PDA offerings. You can simply do a lot more with a lot less attention. However both products are not really feature complete yet - for example neither has a thermal assistant - but they are getting pretty close.