Accuracy of GPS in Garmin 430/530

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...

Steven,

You know, with all due respect, your "discussion style" is really weird
(annoying, too, if I may say so).


What do you find weird about it? In what way do you find it annoying?



How about giving answers instead of only asking questions?


What questions would you like me to answer?




If you think you know something, tell us instead
of smart-*ssing the group to death.


Haven't I done that? Didn't I tell you that no approval is required for
enroute use of a handheld GPS in the US? Didn't I tell you that the mere
existence of a TSO does not prohibit the use of equipment that hasn't been
demonstrated to meet the standard? Didn't I tell you TSOs are not binding
unless there is an FAR that requires the TSO to be complied with? Didn't I
tell you there are TSOs in existence that cover the "approval" of a great
many things, but you don't have to use "approved" equipment in any operation
unless required to do so by the FARs? Isn't telling you those things
telling you something?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:Kt74g.174361$bm6.134909@fed1read04...

They are as primary nav for IFR.



Cite the applicable regulation.



Part 23 (for the type of aircraft we're talking about). A good avionics
shop can direct you to related ACs.



We're not talking about a type of aircraft, we're talking about use of
handheld GPS. Part 23 is not applicable.



So, it does not satisfy Part 23, which requires that the avionics
manufacturer provide equipment (in this case) that is appropriate for IFR
operations.



Part 23 prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of type
certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes in the
normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories. It has nothing to do
with uninstalled devices such as handheld GPS.

You can examine Part 23 he http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2FD2580D



Handhelds are typically not installed. But, once they are connected to an
external antenna and/or ship's power supply they are usually considered to
be installed.



Only by the irrational.


In your view of the world, lots of FSDO inspectors are irrational. I
won't go into the view that FSDO inspectors have of ATC personnel.

As to all the point/counterpoint about handhelds and Part 23, we agree
that a "non-installed" handheld is not subject to any provision of Part
23. What you fail to understand is that, unless a particular item of
avionics that is to be used for primary IFR navigation is so certified,
it cannot be used for primary IFR navigation. Further, if it is
certified for primary IFR navigation, it then has to be installed in
compliance with Part 23. A handheld doesn't quite make the program.

And, please, don't tell me to prove it. Your resource is any G/A
maintenance inspector at your local, friendly FAA FSDO.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:ZK94g.174370$bm6.21952@fed1read04...

Keep in mind the FAA does not do a perfect job of keeping the AIM current.
And, of course, it is not regulatory, but it is sometimes directive and a
focal point to provide information to pilots.



If you knew the AIM was not regulatory why did you cite AIM para 1-1-19?


Because it provides guidance to the regulatory requirements. That is
one of the AIMS principal purposes.

Why do you feel I was incorrect in citing directive guidance?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:0984g.174363$bm6.171092@fed1read04...

Also, AIM 1-1-19:

d. General Requirements
1. Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires that:

(a) GPS navigation equipment used must be approved in accordance with the
requirements specified in Technical Standard Order (TSO) TSO-C129, or
equivalent, and the installation must be done in accordance with Advisory
Circular AC 20-138, Airworthiness Approval of Global Positioning System
(GPS) Navigation Equipment for Use as a VFR and IFR Supplemental
Navigation System, or Advisory Circular AC 20-130A, Airworthiness Approval
of Navigation or Flight Management Systems Integrating Multiple Navigation
Sensors, or equivalent. Equipment approved in accordance with TSO-C115a
does not meet the requirements of TSO-C129. Visual flight rules (VFR) and
hand-held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument
approaches, or as a principal instrument flight reference. During IFR
operations they may be considered only an aid to situational awareness.

(b) Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped
with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate
to the flight. Active monitoring of alternative navigation equipment is
not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring.
Active monitoring of an alternate means of navigation is required when the
RAIM capability of the GPS equipment is lost.

(c) Procedures must be established for use in the event that the loss of
RAIM capability is predicted to occur. In situations where this is
encountered, the flight must rely on other approved equipment, delay
departure, or cancel the flight.

(d) The GPS operation must be conducted in accordance with the
FAA-approved aircraft flight manual (AFM) or flight manual supplement.
Flight crew members must be thoroughly familiar with the particular GPS
equipment installed in the aircraft, the receiver operation manual, and
the AFM or flight manual supplement. Unlike ILS and VOR, the basic
operation, receiver presentation to the pilot, and some capabilities of
the equipment can vary greatly. Due to these differences, operation of
different brands, or even models of the same brand, of GPS receiver under
IFR should not be attempted without thorough study of the operation of
that particular receiver and installation. Most receivers have a built-in
simulator mode which will allow the pilot to become familiar with
operation prior to attempting operation in the aircraft. Using the
equipment in flight under VFR conditions prior to attempting IFR operation
will allow further familiarization.

(e) Aircraft navigating by IFR approved GPS are considered to be area
navigation (RNAV) aircraft and have special equipment suffixes. File the
appropriate equipment suffix in accordance with TBL 5-1-2, on the ATC
flight plan. If GPS avionics become inoperative, the pilot should advise
ATC and amend the equipment suffix.

(f) Prior to any GPS IFR operation, the pilot must review appropriate
NOTAMs and aeronautical information. (See GPS NOTAMs/Aeronautical
Information.)

(g) Air carrier and commercial operators must meet the appropriate
provisions of their approved operations specifications.




AIM Preface, see subparagraph d.:


Flight Information Publication Policy



The following is in essence, the statement issued by the FAA
Administrator and published in the December 10, 1964, issue of the Federal
Register, concerning the FAA policy as pertaining to the type of information
that will be published as NOTAMs and in the Aeronautical Information Manual.

a. It is a pilot's inherent responsibility to be alert at all times
for and in anticipation of all circumstances, situations, and conditions
affecting the safe operation of the aircraft. For example, a pilot should
expect to find air traffic at any time or place. At or near both civil and
military airports and in the vicinity of known training areas, a pilot
should expect concentrated air traffic and realize concentrations of air
traffic are not limited to these places.

b. It is the general practice of the agency to advertise by NOTAM or
other flight information publications such information it may deem
appropriate; information which the agency may from time to time make
available to pilots is solely for the purpose of assisting them in executing
their regulatory responsibilities. Such information serves the aviation
community as a whole and not pilots individually.

c. The fact that the agency under one particular situation or another
may or may not furnish information does not serve as a precedent of the
agency's responsibility to the aviation community; neither does it give
assurance that other information of the same or similar nature will be
advertised, nor, does it guarantee that any and all information known to the
agency will be advertised.

d. This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which
reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be
requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made
available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities
required by other publications.

Consistent with the foregoing, it shall be the policy of the Federal
Aviation Administration to furnish information only when, in the opinion of
the agency, a unique situation should be advertised and not to furnish
routine information such as concentrations of air traffic, either civil or
military. The Aeronautical Information Manual will not contain informative
items concerning everyday circumstances that pilots should, either by good
practices or regulation, expect to encounter or avoid.



And, you point being?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...

Steven,

You know, with all due respect, your "discussion style" is really weird
(annoying, too, if I may say so).



What do you find weird about it? In what way do you find it annoying?



How about giving answers instead of only asking questions?



What questions would you like me to answer?




If you think you know something, tell us instead
of smart-*ssing the group to death.



Haven't I done that? Didn't I tell you that no approval is required for
enroute use of a handheld GPS in the US? Didn't I tell you that the mere
existence of a TSO does not prohibit the use of equipment that hasn't been
demonstrated to meet the standard? Didn't I tell you TSOs are not binding
unless there is an FAR that requires the TSO to be complied with? Didn't I
tell you there are TSOs in existence that cover the "approval" of a great
many things, but you don't have to use "approved" equipment in any operation
unless required to do so by the FARs? Isn't telling you those things
telling you something?


You need to get a better grasp on your employer's policy and
implementation programs. Headquarters has made it abundantly clear that
GPS cannot be used for primary IFR navigation unless the device
complies with TSO 129, 145, or 146 (or is a certified FMS/LNAV
integrated platform). Then, the avionics manufactors of 129, 145, or
146 boxes must prove compliance before they receive certification. And,
then the device has to be installed in an approved manner to satisfy
Part 23.

The AIM material I cited reflects that policy.

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Steven,

You know, with all due respect, your "discussion style" is really weird
(annoying, too, if I may say so). How about giving answers instead of
only asking questions? If you think you know something, tell us instead
of smart-*ssing the group to death.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)


I've been reading Steven's posts for years, Thomas. He only seems to annoy
people who don't know what they are talking about.

ted wrote:

I've been reading Steven's posts for years, Thomas. He only seems to annoy
people who don't know what they are talking about.

So, as president of his fan club, could you tell me how to get Steven to
sign my headsets?

--
Peter

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
ted wrote:

I've been reading Steven's posts for years, Thomas. He only seems to
annoy
people who don't know what they are talking about.

So, as president of his fan club, could you tell me how to get Steven to
sign my headsets?

--
Peter

You misread the post. I'm the president of the fan club of the people who
don't know what they are talking about.

Its a very large club. I'm quite busy keeping up with all the silly things
they say.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:1YG4g.174530$bm6.48282@fed1read04...

Because it provides guidance to the regulatory requirements. That is one
of the AIMS principal purposes.


What applicable FAR did AIM 1-1-19 guide you to? Why not then just cite
that FAR, why cite the middle man?



Why do you feel I was incorrect in citing directive guidance?


Because nothing in the AIM supports your position. You're looking for an
FAR.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:_YG4g.174531$bm6.134045@fed1read04...

And, you point being?


You claimed use of handheld GPS is prohibited by the FAA for use as primary
nav for IFR in Part 91 operations. You were challenged to cite the
applicable regulation. You cited the AIM, which is not regulatory. Only an
FAR can support your claim.