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#1
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Question for the real pilots
I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say, "Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?" She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think? Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group. Cbooth SEL MEL Instrument |
#2
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Question for the real pilots
I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think? Yes, file a NASA report. They shouldn't vector you into the Bravo without giving you those magic words, but it happens. Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#3
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Question for the real pilots
C Booth wrote:
I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think? Technically no, they are not at fault. As you posted, the responsibility is yours. Realistically, I have a problem with a controller that issues a vector into Class B without providing a clearance. I used to base at a class B airport and always had to be on guard for that. Often, Approach Control would sound annoyed when I asked for a Class B clearance that hadn't been given. Too bad for them. Filing a NASA report would be a very good idea in this instance. John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180) -- Message posted via AviationKB.com http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200704/1 |
#4
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Question for the real pilots
You must file the NASA report within 10 days of the event,
you said last month, so you missed the deadline for legal protection. Hope they didn't report you. "C Booth" wrote in message ... |I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to | SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR | clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of | Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then | handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks | intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to | repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am | squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from | Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a | B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I | have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the | vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I | fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the | middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say, | "Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?" | She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened | to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to | say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored | into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the | clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance | before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to | penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should | file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think? | | Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group. | | Cbooth | SEL MEL Instrument |
#5
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Question for the real pilots
File the NASA report...
But for what it's worth... even on ATC vectors for a climb, if she did not say the magic words.. and you as PIC did not ask... PIC is to blame. would you like a phone number to the Nellis Watch Supervisor? BT "C Booth" wrote in message ... I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say, "Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?" She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think? Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group. Cbooth SEL MEL Instrument |
#6
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Question for the real pilots
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:28:32 -0600, C Booth wrote
in : I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of Vegas. Ground Control doesn't issue other than taxi clearances to they? Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then handed off to Nellis aproach. Were you inside KLAS Class B airspace when you contacted Nellis Approach? The controler gives me heading and asks intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. If she's vectoring you, I believe it is her responsibility to clear your transitions through B, C and D terminal airspace. I'd have to consult FAAO 7110.65R to be su http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf I am squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say, "Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?" Perhaps she was a trainee and her trainer called the fact that she had failed to specifically issue you Clearance into Bravo airspace. She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if you get it explicitly. Needless to say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance before flying into the airspace, That's my understanding also. but if they are giving vectors to penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? It's all in FAAO 7110.65R http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf Maybe I should file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think? I think it's always prudent to file a NASA form. Not only does it usually save you from the ordeal of an enforcement action, but the information you provide is used to make the NAS safer. I believe the ATC tapes are available for ~15 days. You might phone Nellis approach and arrange to discuss the incident with the controller. She would normally have to file an FAA form for action to be taken. She probably didn't do that, or you would have heard those other little magic words, "Pleas phone ATC upon landing." At least you'll get a chance to see what's up. Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group. I couldn't agree more. Thanks. Cbooth SEL MEL Instrument |
#7
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Question for the real pilots
Larry Dighera wrote:
Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if you get it explicitly. Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance. You can get implied clearance through C and D space if they use your full callsign, but B is the big special 80,000 lbs. gorilla, and needs full, explicit clearance. As to the OP, technically speaking it was mostly your responsibility to get the clearance, but both parties were really at fault, and no real harm came because of it, so I wouldn't worry too terribly much. TheSmokingGnu |
#8
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Question for the real pilots
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:45:43 -0700, TheSmokingGnu
wrote in : Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance. Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations or orders that support your allegation? |
#9
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Question for the real pilots
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 19:45:43 -0700, TheSmokingGnu wrote in : Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance. Not that I disagree with you, but are you able to cite FAA regulations or orders that support your allegation? He can't. There's no rule. The controller should issue VFR clerarances that way however. Obviously IFR clearances aren't going to sound like that at all. The pilot is definitely responsible for the bust, but the controller rules also prohibit the controller from vectoring aircraft into airspace without coordinating the transition. Of course it fails all the time. |
#10
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Question for the real pilots
Ron Natalie writes:
He can't. There's no rule. Yes, there is. A specific clearance is required, and a specific phraseology is used. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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