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Shot at/Shot back



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 6th 04, 04:27 PM
George Z. Bush
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Joe Osman wrote:
Bob McKellar wrote:

More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
for his efforts.
ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."


A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.


They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.


I guess I misplaced my sense of humor. I may not be a Republican, but we were
in the same convoy going to Italy in December 1944, and he deserves better than
to have jokes made about the wounds he sustained for his nation.

George Z.

Joe



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  #22  
Old March 6th 04, 06:01 PM
Chris Mark
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From: Joe Osman [email protected]

I thought that he was in Military Government, there being a story of him
becoming "military mayor" of the town his family was from.


Heinz Kissinger came of age in Nazi Germany, having been born in 1923, the
first child of a Jewish couple in Fürth, Germany. In 1938, the family
immigrated to American and settled in New York City. Kissinger was a student
at City College when he received his draft notice shortly after his nineteenth
birthday and, by February of 1943, he left for Infantry basic at Camp Croft. He
became a naturalized citizen in Spartanburg on March 19, 1943, along with 348
other Camp Croft soldiers, 131 of whom were also Germans. Despite being away
from his family, and outside of a German-Jewish community for the first time in
his life, Kissinger found South Carolina to be more of a "new world" than New
York had ever been, and he wrote that the experience was "exhilarating." He was
said to have been a solitary figure but performed well during basic training
and after completing basic in June 1943, he was sent to nearby Clemson
University where he qualified for the Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP)
and was sent to Lafayette College in Pennsylvania. When the program was
canceled in April of 1944, Kissinger found himself sent, along with 2,800 other
ASTP candidates, to Camp Claiborne, LA to join the 84th Infantry Division.
Assigned to Company G, 335th Infantry Regiment, Kissinger departed for Germany
in November 1944 and, as part of the Ninth Army, quickly pushed into Germany
only to be driven back into Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge. By March,
the company was back in Germany, arriving at Krefled where Kissinger, a PFC
with no security clearance but displaying other obvious qualities, became the
administrator of the city. Shortly afterwards, he was transferred to the
Counter-Intellegence branch, promoted to the rank of Sergeant, and served with
distinction in other important occupational duties. Demobilized in May 1946,
Kissinger worked for a time in Europe as an instructor at the European Command
Counter Intelligence School in Oberhammergau before returning to the US,
entering Harvard University under the G.I. bill.


Chris Mark
  #23  
Old March 6th 04, 06:09 PM
Chris Mark
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For Kissenger's WW2 experiences, two biographies are useful:

"Kissinger, a Biography" by Walter Isaacson, 1992, and Kissinger, Portrait of a
Mind by Stephen R. Graubard, 1973.



Chris Mark
  #25  
Old March 6th 04, 10:40 PM
Chris Mark
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From:

displaying other obvious qualities, became the
administrator of the city.


And one of those qualities was total fluency in German, rare among US
troops..


At an AEI dinner recently, Ben Wattenberg asked Kissinger if, while reigning
with absolute authority over Krefled, including having the unquestioned power
of life and death, whether he was not tempted to mete out violent justice to
local Nazis, not only because he was a German Jew, but because he had just come
through some very hard combat in which many of his comrades died.
Kissinger acknowledged that, since he was operating under the harsh military
directive JCS 1067, not modified and softened until 1947, he certainly could
have done so, especially since its primary author, Harry Dexter White,
suggested that a list of war criminals based on Stalin's list of 50,000 be
prepared and sent to American soldiers in Germany, who could, after verifying
their identity, shoot any of them on sight.
However, Kissinger said he felt it was more important to show the Germans that
their conquerers were better than they, and did not stoop to barbarism. So,
although both the temptation and authority existed, he did not order any
executions or conduct any himself. Considering that Kissinger was 22 years old
at the time, that shows considerable maturity on his part.
White, a very large figure in postwar events, was, of course, later accused of
being a communist spy in cahoots with Stalin, dying "mysteriously" within a few
days of appearing before a congressional hearing into his activities.


Chris Mark
  #26  
Old March 6th 04, 10:48 PM
ArtKramr
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Subject: Shot at/Shot back
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 3/6/04 2:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From:


displaying other obvious qualities, became the
administrator of the city.


And one of those qualities was total fluency in German, rare among US
troops..


At an AEI dinner recently, Ben Wattenberg asked Kissinger if, while reigning
with absolute authority over Krefled, including having the unquestioned power
of life and death, whether he was not tempted to mete out violent justice to
local Nazis, not only because he was a German Jew, but because he had just
come
through some very hard combat in which many of his comrades died.
Kissinger acknowledged that, since he was operating under the harsh military
directive JCS 1067, not modified and softened until 1947, he certainly could
have done so, especially since its primary author, Harry Dexter White,
suggested that a list of war criminals based on Stalin's list of 50,000 be
prepared and sent to American soldiers in Germany, who could, after verifying
their identity, shoot any of them on sight.
However, Kissinger said he felt it was more important to show the Germans
that
their conquerers were better than they, and did not stoop to barbarism. So,
although both the temptation and authority existed, he did not order any
executions or conduct any himself. Considering that Kissinger was 22 years
old
at the time, that shows considerable maturity on his part.
White, a very large figure in postwar events, was, of course, later accused
of
being a communist spy in cahoots with Stalin, dying "mysteriously" within a
few
days of appearing before a congressional hearing into his activities.


Chris Mark



There were certain unfortunate years in our history when everyone was accused
of being a communist spy. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

  #27  
Old March 7th 04, 01:02 AM
Joe Osman
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George Z. Bush wrote:
Joe Osman wrote:

Bob McKellar wrote:


More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
for his efforts.
ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."



A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.


They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.



I guess I misplaced my sense of humor. I may not be a Republican, but we were
in the same convoy going to Italy in December 1944, and he deserves better than
to have jokes made about the wounds he sustained for his nation.

George Z.

Joe




Sorry, it wasn't meant to be funny. It's the story he told an
interviewer during his presidential campaign after the interviewer asked
him if his WWII record would be meaningful to the current generation. I
guess his point was that it wasn't meaningful to some of his own
generation. He never asked for any special treatment because he was a
wounded veteran, he just went back to his life as best he could.

Joe

  #28  
Old March 7th 04, 04:06 AM
Michael P. Reed
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In message [email protected]_s04, "raymond o'hara" wrote:

burr was with arnold on the march to quebec


This I had not known, though, according to Boatner, he probably served as a
volunteer.

and he was at monmouth .


Boatner claims that he commanded a brigade that was in action and that it
suffered a repulse. Interesting, but I remain sceptical. Burr was the LTC of
Malcom's Additional Regiment. Malcom, I do believe was detached (he appeared
to have spent most of his career away from his regiment) and was still in the
Highlands, though I do not know this for certain. The earliest information I
can find on him for 1778 in the Washington Papers is an order in late July
ordering him to take command of Fort Arnold at West Point. This is subsequent
to Monmouth and Washington's redeployment to the Highland's region. It is not
unlikely that Burr continued to command the regiment as he had done (for
certain) the previous winter. Malcom's Regiment was assigned to the Third
Pennsylvania Brigade (late Thomas Conway's) with the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th
Pennylvania, and Spencer's Additional Regiments. The 6th and 12th Regiments
were without colonels, and Burr was was senior in comparison. The 9th's
Colonel, Richard Butler, was detached to command one of the battalion
detachments of the Advance Corps (and saw quite extenseive action). The LTC of
that detachment was Rudolph Bunner from the 3rd Regiment, who was killed. That
left the 3rd and Spencer's Regiments. Oliver Spencer was definately in command
of his regiment a couple of months later, and Craig was likely present as well
as he was ordered detached (while at camp) only a few days after the battle.
If either both were present, then Burr would not have had command of the Third
Pennsylvania Brigade. The brigade may well have seen some action as it was
attached to Stirling's Left Wing. Alas, it Boatner has missed the boat, so to
speak, on so many other occassions it is difficulty to take any statement by
him without a huge dose of salt.

As an aside, it was Malcom's Regiment (while under Burr) which saw, AFAIK, the
only case of a soldier (in this case a LT) during the war to be courtmartialed
(and "dismissed with infamy) for committing, or attempting to commit, sodomy
(i.e. he tried to play hide the salomi with one of his men).

In an actual on topic reference, a detachment of Malcom's Regiment (sans Burr)
was present in the defense, and fall, of Fort Montgomery which led to the
direct loss of two Continental warships, including one of the newly built
frigates. N.B. that it was impossible for the British squadron to provide
naval gunfire support as the forts (inc. Fort Clinton) were positioned too high
up the bluffs, and the guns could not be elevated sufficiently.

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

  #29  
Old March 7th 04, 06:12 AM
George Z. Bush
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Joe Osman wrote:
George Z. Bush wrote:
Joe Osman wrote:

Bob McKellar wrote:


More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
for his efforts.
ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."



A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.

They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.



I guess I misplaced my sense of humor. I may not be a Republican, but we
were in the same convoy going to Italy in December 1944, and he deserves
better than to have jokes made about the wounds he sustained for his nation.

George Z.

Joe




Sorry, it wasn't meant to be funny. It's the story he told an
interviewer during his presidential campaign after the interviewer asked
him if his WWII record would be meaningful to the current generation. I
guess his point was that it wasn't meaningful to some of his own
generation. He never asked for any special treatment because he was a
wounded veteran, he just went back to his life as best he could.

Joe


Point taken.....thanks.

George Z.


  #30  
Old March 7th 04, 06:41 AM
Erik Von Erich
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Bob McKellar wrote in message ...

After all the discussion of Kerry's VN history, I wondered
if we have had any other recent ( last 75 years or so )
presidents or major contenders who have killed somebody in a
personal and particular way. We have had bomb droppers (
GHWB, McGovern ) and Truman's artillery and Ford's AA, but
little close range infantry type experience in our leaders
since Teddy R.

Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
aimed or "to whom it may concern".

Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
think the experience of picking a particular human being and
blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.



I know for a fact that Laura Bush's automobile was more lethal than
Dubya's Delta Dagger turned out to be. One crash. One kill.

I'm only kidding! I'm kidding all of my fellow naval scientists.

Semper Sci
Do or die
Hold 'em high
At Haze Gray and USNI
 




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