#1 Piston Fighter was British

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 17:24:14 GMT, (The
Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:

I was the navigator as well as the Bombardier.

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile.

I don't know about Art, but as of today you're in mine.

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

Nissan Huts

/Quibble

Mike

Nissen Hut surely, named after Peter Norman Nissen as I recall.

Yeah, the Nissan Hut was a lightweight job, which replaced the Datsun
Hut

all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net)

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
How did you learn to use the Norden? Did you design, buld and test it
yourself or did somebody else do it for you? In which case, don't
bother telling me about bomb-aiming and Norden issues, I'd rather have
it from the horses' mouth.

Gee, come to think about it I never did talk much about the Norden.

I was listening...

There seems
to be zero interest in it.

It might be specialised, but some of us are interested.


Art, you and Gavin both have valuable information to share, acquired in
very different ways. I know you won't kiss and make up, but can you try
to find a way to live with your argument? I value both sources and would
hate to lose one or both.


--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:31:15 -0400, Stephen Harding
wrote:

You've made a fair point about personal experience versus historical
record, but you're really starting to sound asinine in this effort.

Thanks for your opinion. I note that you didn't make the point,
asinine or not.

I think all will agree there is a place for history and a place for
personal experience. We can probably all agree reading something and
personally experiencing something are not equivalent.

Of course not. I'd never suggested that, although I get the suspicion
that's what Art thinks I believe. It also appears to be an approach
he has erroneously attributed to several other posters on this group,
at least two of which have posted in this thread. If the tone of the
posts annoys you or you find them "asinine", I suggest you take it up
with the poster responsible for initiating the exchange at that level.
I'm happy enough to discuss things on a rational level, and I
genuinely respect Kramer's experience and contribution, but that
appears insufficient to maintain a rational and respectful level of
exchange on his part.

Fine by me, if that's how he prefers it.

We can probably all agree that being told our knowledge is inadequate
because it was not obtained by personal experience, or that your personal
experience is "wrong" or not general, based on someone's readings, can be
annoying in the extreme.

I'd like to know where I've ever done this to anybody, let alone Art
Kramer in particular.

Leave it at that and move on. No killfiling required from anyone!

This isn't the first instance of Art provoking such a reaction, and
your selectivity in responding is notable.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:11:40 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

Sorry, I thought I was in your killfile.

I don't know about Art, but as of today you're in mine.

I'm somehow reminded of your exchanges with Eric Schilling at this
point. Perhaps your tolerance of being unreasonably dismissed by
veterans is higher than mine. I still read his contributions and
yours (and even bought your book as a consequence).

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:50:36 +0100, Greg Hennessy
wrote:

If you want to discuss something, talk about the "impotence" of my
relatives who were fighting the war long before you arrived on the
scene. Eight times to Berlin.

How many times did you do that?

He sure as hell wasn't freezing the ******** off himself on artic convoys
as my maternal grandfather was.

Funnily enough the old boy had plenty of time for other people and
their experiences, and thought his worth passing on in writing - I've
got them in front of me now, although it's a shame he didn't leave
more.

I have nothing but respect for anybody who did the Murmansk run. Did
he record anything about his experiences? Time passes and the
memories pass away as they do.

Gavin Bailey

--

"...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be
avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."
- 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11'
The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised wrote:

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:31:15 -0400, Stephen Harding
wrote:

You've made a fair point about personal experience versus historical
record, but you're really starting to sound asinine in this effort.

Thanks for your opinion. I note that you didn't make the point,
asinine or not.

???
Never mind.

[snip]

I'm happy enough to discuss things on a rational level, and I

Well your little "did you weigh the bomb load" "discussion" is not really
rational and becoming tedious in its repetition. No need kicking a dead
horse.

This isn't the first instance of Art provoking such a reaction, and
your selectivity in responding is notable.

Well I don't agree with Art's statements that only personal experience is
worth anything in comparison to learned experience. We'd never really
know anything if that were true.

But I will admit I'm a fan of Art's and have just come to accept that he
has very strong opinions about things that aren't going to be easily changed,
and so be it. No point getting flustered about it.

Consider yourself fortunate you are not French!


SMH

In message , ArtKramr
writes
Subject: #1 Piston Fighter was British
From: David Lentz
In all fairness, Dieppe was a raid. It not intended to take and
hold territory, but rather only as a test of the German's
defenses. Dieppe did establish that any Allied invasion of
Europe would mean coming across the beach and not by capturing
and using a sea port.

It was a terrible blow to Biritsh morale.

It also was the reason we were so insistent that D-Day absolutely could
not be in 1942 (imagine Dieppe repeated on a multi-divisional,
multinational scale) and that it was better to accept delay and go with
the best available strength in 1944, than make a brave speculative
effort in 1943.

Meantime, various people fought the Germans every way they could.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam

ArtKramr wrote:


I never read any books on the subject.


It shows.

I was there. I looked for you but didn't see you, where were you? Read a
thousand books. You still won' t have the feeling of what it was all about..

Arthur Kramer


Then I guess there is no point reading your writing.

Dave

In all fairness, Dieppe was a raid. It not intended to take and
hold territory, but rather only as a test of the German's
defenses. Dieppe did establish that any Allied invasion of
Europe would mean coming across the beach and not by capturing
and using a sea port.

Dieppe had its value, and its cost. Was it worth it? I don't
know.

David


It was a terrible blow to Biritsh morale.

Arthur Kramer




I don't think the Canadians were all that happy about it either Art.

Dave