Debunking Glider Spoiler Turns Causing Spin Thinking

On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 09:56:48 -0700, platypterus101 wrote:

Can someone help educate these folks by posting a link to a nice
illustration of the lift-drag-weight vector triangle for straight-line
gliding flight?

S

Try this: http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/4forces.html - the
Lift, Thrust, Weight, and Drag section of http://www.av8n.com/

Better yet, read the whole site. Its its explanations are always clear
and relatively non-mathematical, preferring to use diagrams rather than
formulae. Yes, its about powered light aircraft and aimed at GA pilots,
but none the worse for that.

Alternatively, get yourself a copy of "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang
Langewiesche. Its equally non-mathematical and presents a pilots-centric
view of how wings work and the effect of control inputs. IMO it belongs
in a glider pilots library alongside George Moffat's "Winning on the
Wind" or its second edition, "Winning II" and, if you're pre-solo or
early solo, you may also want a copy of Derek Piggott's "Gliding".


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Fri, 05 Jun 2015 06:35:11 -0700, platypterus101 wrote:

What do you need to do with the stick to hold a constant airspeed as you
open the spoilers in wings-level flight?

That's dependent in what glider you're flying:

- If you're in a Puchacz you give the stick a healthy shove forward as
you open the brakes. If you don't, it will loose at least 5 kts almost
instantly.

- if you're in a Libelle, SZD Junior or an ASK-21 there's little
immediate speed change.

- in a Grob G103 you pull back a bit because these drop their nose and
pick up speed when you open the brakes.

Is the heart of the matter simply that for a given airspeed in
wings-level at any given bank angle, including zero degrees bank, the
stick needs to be positioned further aft with the spoilers open than
with the spoilers closed?

No. The main effect of well-designed airbrakes is to reduce effective
lifting surface, but, as a side effect is to add drag, most gliders will
need the stick to be eased forward a little to keep the airspeed
constant. However, the wind gradient and turbulence will probably be more
significant: you'll think you're correcting for these factors rather than
for the extra drag from the brakes. But, as I said above, it does depend
on the glider. For the G103 to behave as it does, its drag must reduce
along with the lift as you open the brakes. Conversely, the Puchacz has
huge speed-limiting upper and lower surface brakes: so much so that it
would be surprising if shoving those out in the breeze didn't show it
down.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 7:59:13 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:

No. The main effect of well-designed airbrakes is to reduce effective
lifting surface, but, as a side effect is to add drag, most gliders will
need the stick to be eased forward a little to keep the airspeed
constant. However, the wind gradient and turbulence will probably be more
significant: you'll think you're correcting for these factors rather than
for the extra drag from the brakes. But, as I said above, it does depend
on the glider. For the G103 to behave as it does, its drag must reduce
along with the lift as you open the brakes. Conversely, the Puchacz has
huge speed-limiting upper and lower surface brakes: so much so that it
would be surprising if shoving those out in the breeze didn't show it
down.

One could steer this conversation in the direction of transient versus steady-state effects. For example, if we start with a typical sailplane L/D ratio (say 30:1), and then we deploy some device that doubles the drag coefficient and halves the lift coefficient, we'll experience a temporary deceleration due to the sudden drag, but as the flight path curves downward, it must be the case that we'll finally come to equilibrium at a much higher airspeed than we started with.

Because "scaling up" the L and D vectors, by increasing the airspeed, is the only way to create a closed vector triangle of L D and W.

Assuming that angle-of-attack is held constant throughout.

When we open airbrakes without moving the stick, there's no reason to assume that angle-of-attack stays constant. We're killing the lift over one part of a wing which has twist (washout), so we're making a change in the average incidence of the "working" part of the wing. And we may be changing the airflow over the tail as well.

So a question of interest remains-- let's forget about airspeed entirely-- in wings-level flight or at some shallow bank angle, does the stick need to be further aft (closer to the aft stop) to induce a stall with airbrakes open than with airbrakes closed?

S

We can beat up theory all day, but what about practice?

I don't give a sh!t what I do with the stick when I open the brakes, nor
what is the arc hyperbolic cosine of the angle of the dangle, nor what
the glider does in response. When I deploy the boards, I also operate
the flight controls to make the flight path do what I want.

Or you can be debating theory as you proceed merrily towards the ground.

On 6/6/2015 7:32 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 7:59:13 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:

No. The main effect of well-designed airbrakes is to reduce effective
lifting surface, but, as a side effect is to add drag, most gliders will
need the stick to be eased forward a little to keep the airspeed
constant. However, the wind gradient and turbulence will probably be more
significant: you'll think you're correcting for these factors rather than
for the extra drag from the brakes. But, as I said above, it does depend
on the glider. For the G103 to behave as it does, its drag must reduce
along with the lift as you open the brakes. Conversely, the Puchacz has
huge speed-limiting upper and lower surface brakes: so much so that it
would be surprising if shoving those out in the breeze didn't show it
down.

One could steer this conversation in the direction of transient versus steady-state effects. For example, if we start with a typical sailplane L/D ratio (say 30:1), and then we deploy some device that doubles the drag coefficient and halves the lift coefficient, we'll experience a temporary deceleration due to the sudden drag, but as the flight path curves downward, it must be the case that we'll finally come to equilibrium at a much higher airspeed than we started with.

Because "scaling up" the L and D vectors, by increasing the airspeed, is the only way to create a closed vector triangle of L D and W.

Assuming that angle-of-attack is held constant throughout.

When we open airbrakes without moving the stick, there's no reason to assume that angle-of-attack stays constant. We're killing the lift over one part of a wing which has twist (washout), so we're making a change in the average incidence of the "working" part of the wing. And we may be changing the airflow over the tail as well.

So a question of interest remains-- let's forget about airspeed entirely-- in wings-level flight or at some shallow bank angle, does the stick need to be further aft (closer to the aft stop) to induce a stall with airbrakes open than with airbrakes closed?

S

--
Dan Marotta

On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 06:32:10 -0700, platypterus101 wrote:

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 7:59:13 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:

No. The main effect of well-designed airbrakes is to reduce effective
lifting surface, but, as a side effect is to add drag, most gliders
will need the stick to be eased forward a little to keep the airspeed
constant. However, the wind gradient and turbulence will probably be
more significant: you'll think you're correcting for these factors
rather than for the extra drag from the brakes. But, as I said above,
it does depend on the glider. For the G103 to behave as it does, its
drag must reduce along with the lift as you open the brakes.
Conversely, the Puchacz has huge speed-limiting upper and lower surface
brakes: so much so that it would be surprising if shoving those out in
the breeze didn't show it down.

One could steer this conversation in the direction of transient versus
steady-state effects.

Kindly stop changing the subject. You asked about transient effects when
the brakes are opened. I passed on personal experience of flying gliders
with a range of behaviour when the brakes are opened, which is what you
asked about.

There is only valid answer: "what happens depends on which glider you're
flying", i.e. there is no single universal answer. Live with it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 08:42:02 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:

We can beat up theory all day, but what about practice?

I don't give a sh!t what I do with the stick when I open the brakes, nor
what is the arc hyperbolic cosine of the angle of the dangle, nor what
the glider does in response. When I deploy the boards, I also operate
the flight controls to make the flight path do what I want.

Or you can be debating theory as you proceed merrily towards the ground.

Well put, sir.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 9:42:10 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
When I deploy the boards, I
also operate the flight controls to make the flight path do what I
want.

Wouldn't it be analogous to say that when I bank the glider, I also operate the flight controls to make the flight path do what I want, so there's no significance to the fact that I have to get the stick way aft to reach the stall angle-of-attack while steeply banked?

I'm having a little trouble understanding why people are getting steamed up....

S

Not getting steamed up. Only trying to lighten up the conversation and
remind the newer guys that theory is great in the classroom but there's
no time in flight to plan the minute details of operating the flight
controls. I still recall how liberating it was the first time I flew
the aircraft without having to think about how to move the controls to
get the desired reaction. After that it was more like dancing than like
digging a ditch.

But to answer directly - yes, in a steeply banked turn in a glider (at
least in mine) I can hold the stick at the aft stop without stalling. I
never do that during the final turn, by the way...

On 6/7/2015 7:47 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 9:42:10 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
When I deploy the boards, I
also operate the flight controls to make the flight path do what I
want.
Wouldn't it be analogous to say that when I bank the glider, I also operate the flight controls to make the flight path do what I want, so there's no significance to the fact that I have to get the stick way aft to reach the stall angle-of-attack while steeply banked?

I'm having a little trouble understanding why people are getting steamed up...

S

--
Dan Marotta

Hi Surge, which club and instructor was that? It certainly is not normal practice in SA

Piggott pointed out that the airflow over
the tailplane in a turn comes at an angle
that requires more elevator than normally
available to stall the glider.

On one of my spin checks, we found that
the Puchaz will spin out of a 45 degree
banked turn.