Pardon me, but this is the kind of bull**** that's killing GA

"David Lesher" wrote in message
...

The ATC screwup I recall was when they vectored the jump plane over
Lake Erie and all the skydivers drowned. I've never looked for that
NTSB report {It happened in the 60's} but maybe I will.


How was that an ATC screw-up?

Yes, the controller errored in not following procedure on the altitude
snitch alarm (it's there for more than just dinging us pilots for
busting an altitude), but interestingly we have no information about
why the other airplane did not question who else answered to his tail
number... And how did the other airplane get down if he didn't take the
controllers instructions?... In controlled airspace I try to be alert
to similar tail numbers...

And, don't be too worried about Uncle Sam getting sued, he's got your
money to pay it with...

denny

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...

Yes, the controller errored in not following procedure on the altitude
snitch alarm (it's there for more than just dinging us pilots for
busting an altitude), but interestingly we have no information about
why the other airplane did not question who else answered to his tail
number... And how did the other airplane get down if he didn't take the
controllers instructions?... In controlled airspace I try to be alert
to similar tail numbers...


That was not the only ATC error. When similar callsigns are on the
frequency the controller is supposed to use full callsigns and alert each
pilot of the situation.

Hey, you can sue anyone for anything, doesn't mean you'll win. Take for
instance the Washington state family suing Caterpillar because an Israeli
bulldozer driver ran over their daughter who was standing in front of a
Palestinian house that was to be demolished. The bulldozer worked as
designed, the death occured because their protesting daughter was too
stubborn to move and the driver was too stubborn to stop. Squish.

Yep, sounds like Caterpillar's fault, doesn't it? If they had only put a
disclaimer on the front of the bulldozer that said, "Caution, standing in
front of this bulldozer as it bears down on you can result in severe injury
or death.", they would be off the hook. Now you know where all those silly
product warnings come from...

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:59:24 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
wrote:

The ATC screwup I recall was when they vectored the jump plane over
Lake Erie and all the skydivers drowned. I've never looked for that
NTSB report {It happened in the 60's} but maybe I will.

I remember there being a cloud cover such that the pilot, who was
above it, did not know where he was and ended up out over lake Erie.
Don't remember anything about ATC being involved though.

Corky Scott

Mike Granby wrote:

But the NTSB report won't be admissible, right?

I don't think accident reports of any type are admissable since they are
always heresay -- filled out by a person who did not witness the accident.

I suppose that because I was on a jury for a lawsuit involving a car
crash and when the cop's report was "shown" to us, everything was
blacked out except the date, location, and names of the parties involved.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
That was not the only ATC error. When similar callsigns are on the
frequency the controller is supposed to use full callsigns and alert each
pilot of the situation.

I've had fun with that. My club owns Archer 17AV. There is also a
Archer 117AV in the area. One day I'm just about to call up NY
Approach returning to HPN when 117AV beats me to it and checks in,
same destination. It took me a while to get the controller to
understand that he hadn't just heard the callsign wrong, and there
really were two of us.

"Corky Scott" wrote in message
...

I remember there being a cloud cover such that the pilot, who was
above it, did not know where he was and ended up out over lake Erie.
Don't remember anything about ATC being involved though.


From dropzone.com:

On August 27th 1967, Bob Karns, who was a pilot working for Ortner Aviation
at Wakeman Ohio, was giving a free jump from 20,000 ft + in a B-25 WW II
bomber, to some jumpers who had jumped from that aircraft at an air show,
for which Karns had been paid.

There was so many jumpers showed up at Ortner Field, the plane was
overloaded to the extent that the nose wheel came up off the ground.

As a result, three or four jumpers were taken from the aircraft, and the
rest were to make the jump.

The plane took off and began its long climb, disappearing into 100% cloud
cover . Cloud base was about 4000 ft and the tops about 6000 feet.

A local jumper who should have known better, took off a bit later in a
Cessna 180, and was planning to take 35mm still photos of the jumpers as
they fell towards Ortner field.

Common sense should have made him realize that the jumpers would be passing
his Cessna 180 like bullets, and he would not get any usable photos, and if
they were far enough away from the Cessna, they would be nothing but tiny
specks in his viewfinder.

The plane reached altitude, and the pilot (Bob Karns) received confirmation
that the aircraft was directly over Ortner field. The radar screen was
showing a blip at that spot ( actually it was the Cessna 180) and Karns
turned and waved the jumpers out the bomb bay doors. Jimmy Simmons was first
to go, and the others followed like they were tied on a long string.

There was a total of 18 jumpers, and Bob Coy (one of the survivors) told me
later they had a real blast getting together and just flying....until they
approached the dark clouds at 6K.

As the jumpers came through the clouds, they were faced with a rainstorm and
the fact that they were 5 miles out over Lake Erie.

They opened the chutes immediately, hoping to make it closer to shore. I
believe everyone had Para-Commanders, and although its a great canopy, it
doesnt fly like a square...not even close.

Few made any headway, and prepared to ditch in the lake, which was 72
degrees F.

Norm Allard had two jumpsuits on because of the cold at altitude, but he
managed to get them off, except for the altimeter pinning them both to his
wrist. Thats how they found him.

Bill Onyska had the only piece of flotation gear, which he inflated, but the
CO2 went out a small hole
that had gone unnoticed in the device...and it was useless.

BoB Coy, tried using his packed reserve as floatation, but it soon became
waterlogged, and he discarded it, and then he tried to lay on his helmet
which had styrofoam inside. That probably saved his life.

A search was quickly started, and over the next 5 days, they collected all
the bodies from the lake.

A boat had been brought alongside a jumper named Johnson, and the boat then
drove off leaving him in the lake. It is possible the guy was a smuggler or
out for a cruise with someone elses wife and didnt want to get involved. A
second boat rescued Johnson.

Para Commanders were floating on the lake...with no one in the harness, or
near them. Several were cut to pieces by boat propellers and founds later.

My best friend, Joe Malarik was the last to be found. Oddly enough, Joe had
been in a bar the night before with his girldfriend Barb and another guy,
and he said that when he died, he would prefer to drown. He did so the very
next day.

When Joe was a young boy, he drowned in a swimming pool, but was revived. He
thought it would be the best way to go.

The B-25 aircraft, made another circuit, and again was told by Oberlin Tower
that it was directly over Ortner Field, and Larry Hartman and Al Olmstead
jumped, wearinmg oxygen masks and bottles.

The Cessna hand landed by this time, and the B-25 was in fact, over the
target area.

Hartman noticed through a small hole in the clouds, one of the airport
runways, and he pointed to it for Olmstead. They tracked over, and landed on
the airport.

By this time, the accident was known, and everyone got involved in the
search.

Dale Gates of the Parkman DZ, flew his Cessna a few feet above the choppy
waves of the lake, trying to spot survivors, but none were seen.

In all 16 jumpers died that day.

Denny wrote:
Yes, the controller errored in not following procedure on the
altitude
snitch alarm (it's there for more than just dinging us pilots for
busting an altitude), but interestingly we have no information about
why the other airplane did not question who else answered to his tail
number...

snip

Simple, the abbreviated callsign used by the controller was the
correct one for both airplanes (four papa alpha). How would either
airplane know which one the controller was talking to. In the accident
pilot's defense, he did read back with his full callsign and the
controller missed that as well. I'd say the controller had some
responsibilty in this one.

As for the Jacksonville crash, I've read the NTSB report on that one
and I agree with the OP. It was a money grab. The pilot lost it on
missed approach at 1,000 ft. supposedly it was caused by the tower
controllers giving the pilot an altimeter setting that was .03" Hg off.


John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"A.Coleman" wrote in message
m...
Please read this. This is what's killing GA and we ought to do something
about it.


I'm curious about something from the "4PA" incident...

The article mentions that there were five aircraft ostensibly travelling
together along the same route, right?

What if the lead aircraft (if there was one...) had mentioned to the
controller that they were a "flight of five" from the Pan Am Academy? Might
that have made a lightbulb go off in the controllers head that "these five
probably have similar call signs." ??

The only reason I ask is that we have a lot of Embry Riddle planes in AZ and
they all end in ER which I could see causing a similar set of
circumstances...

Just wondering out loud...

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ