Cockpit video displays. Was: Get Rid Of Warbirds At Oshkosh

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
k.net...

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
Mark Hickey wrote
I suspect you're picturing the pilot staring continually at the video
screen while taxiing... that's not at all what I'd imagine.

Doesn't sound as if Dudley has spent much time driving an automobile
with an in-dash GPS. :-)

Bob Moore

Nope, not much I'm afraid; but on the other hand, a bit more than a few
hours in tailwheel fighter planes if that counts for anything :-)

DH


Being something of a tech guy, I'm a long time fan of cocpit video displays
for some purposes. I've even come around to the idea that they may be good
for some of the promary instruments--for instance there's a lot of really
informative stuff to overlay with an HSI...

However, Dudley has me convinced on this one. Swinging the nose from side
to side and watching outside is most probably the only way, unless all
traces of authenticity are abandonned and the panel is completely
modernized.

At the risk of seeming callous, this appears to be a really uncommon type of
accident and we really could take the position that "stuff happens." It is
a really scary way to meet one's demise; but everyone will be alert to the
hazard for several years, and, even if we do nothing at all, there will not
be a wave of similar accidents.

OTOH, It could be usefull to know who's on your six, andCessna 150s had rear
view mirrors as do most modern fighters. Pictures I've seen of WWII
fighters suggest that a lot of P51Ds and P38s may have had them in service
as well. The 150s had the mirror at glareshield level, while the fighters
all had/have their mirrors mounted as high as practical.

Peter
Sweltering in four layers of Nomex :-)

Dudley Henriques wrote:

Now, as for your TV screen on the panel; it's no good for several reasons.
First of all, even if simply included in your taxi scan, it takes the scan
inside the cockpit then outside again which is bad, since a great deal of
the visual cues involved in taxiing these airplanes are based on a visual
cue received during a horizontal movement of the nose projecting a safe path
for a projected FUTURE TIME LINE, and not where the nose is pointed NOW!.
Secondly, any screen small enough to be placed in a fighter panel would not
be projecting an image in life size, and that alone brings an additional
mental calculation into the futures equation as to exactly how far ahead of
the airplane any viewed image in the screen might be.

If you're using the screen to judge how far you can move, you're using
it wrong.

Those big round mirrors on the front corners of 18-wheelers. Drivers
don't use 'em to back into a parking space at a crowded truck stop.
They only tell you if there is ANYTHING at your side. If you see
anything in the big ball, you don't move until you can eyeball it. You
don't waste time trying to identify or mentally place it in relation to
yourself. You just stop any motion toward it.

Same with a video screen. It should have a fish-eye camera, and it's
only a warning system. The Avenger pilot didn't know the RV was there.
I guarantee you he would have hit the brakes and not moved if he
suspected what we now know. The fish-eye camera won't tell you how far
away the other guy is, but it let's you know he's there.

Yes there is delay in the notification from wingwalkers. But, good god
people, how fast were they taxiing in those crowded conditions. All you
need is something to say, "Danger. Danger, Will Robinson." Once the
presence of a danger is indicated, prudent people will stop and
investigate. That is all that's necessary to keep pilots from taxiing
onto one another.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:20:02 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
Mark Hickey wrote
I suspect you're picturing the pilot staring continually at the video
screen while taxiing... that's not at all what I'd imagine.

Doesn't sound as if Dudley has spent much time driving an automobile
with an in-dash GPS. :-)

Bob Moore

Nope, not much I'm afraid; but on the other hand, a bit more than a few
hours in tailwheel fighter planes if that counts for anything :-)

DH


Being something of a tech guy, I'm a long time fan of cocpit video displays
for some purposes. I've even come around to the idea that they may be good
for some of the promary instruments--for instance there's a lot of really
informative stuff to overlay with an HSI...

However, Dudley has me convinced on this one. Swinging the nose from side
to side and watching outside is most probably the only way, unless all
traces of authenticity are abandonned and the panel is completely
modernized.

At the risk of seeming callous, this appears to be a really uncommon type of
accident and we really could take the position that "stuff happens." It is
a really scary way to meet one's demise; but everyone will be alert to the
hazard for several years, and, even if we do nothing at all, there will not
be a wave of similar accidents.

OTOH, It could be usefull to know who's on your six, andCessna 150s had rear
view mirrors as do most modern fighters. Pictures I've seen of WWII
fighters suggest that a lot of P51Ds and P38s may have had them in service
as well. The 150s had the mirror at glareshield level, while the fighters
all had/have their mirrors mounted as high as practical.

Peter
Sweltering in four layers of Nomex :-)

FWIW, I've seen another TBM (at Arlington / KAWO) *almost* do the same
thing (taxi into the airplane in front of him). By the time the pilot
realized why everyone was waving their arms / yelling & screaming it
was nearly too late (he locked the brakes and skidded a short distance
on the taxiway and the tail swung to one side).

If anything, this Oshkosh incident has taught me not to get in a big
line of aircraft with a large (warbird, whatever) taildragger behind
me. I'd opt for waiting like the Lancair pilot did (mentioned in the
NTSB prelim).

Bela P. Havasreti

"Bela P. Havasreti" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:20:02 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
Mark Hickey wrote
I suspect you're picturing the pilot staring continually at the
video
screen while taxiing... that's not at all what I'd imagine.

Doesn't sound as if Dudley has spent much time driving an automobile
with an in-dash GPS. :-)

Bob Moore

Nope, not much I'm afraid; but on the other hand, a bit more than a few
hours in tailwheel fighter planes if that counts for anything :-)

DH


Being something of a tech guy, I'm a long time fan of cocpit video
displays
for some purposes. I've even come around to the idea that they may be
good
for some of the promary instruments--for instance there's a lot of really
informative stuff to overlay with an HSI...

However, Dudley has me convinced on this one. Swinging the nose from
side
to side and watching outside is most probably the only way, unless all
traces of authenticity are abandonned and the panel is completely
modernized.

At the risk of seeming callous, this appears to be a really uncommon type
of
accident and we really could take the position that "stuff happens." It
is
a really scary way to meet one's demise; but everyone will be alert to
the
hazard for several years, and, even if we do nothing at all, there will
not
be a wave of similar accidents.

OTOH, It could be usefull to know who's on your six, andCessna 150s had
rear
view mirrors as do most modern fighters. Pictures I've seen of WWII
fighters suggest that a lot of P51Ds and P38s may have had them in
service
as well. The 150s had the mirror at glareshield level, while the
fighters
all had/have their mirrors mounted as high as practical.

Peter
Sweltering in four layers of Nomex :-)

FWIW, I've seen another TBM (at Arlington / KAWO) *almost* do the same
thing (taxi into the airplane in front of him). By the time the pilot
realized why everyone was waving their arms / yelling & screaming it
was nearly too late (he locked the brakes and skidded a short distance
on the taxiway and the tail swung to one side).

If anything, this Oshkosh incident has taught me not to get in a big
line of aircraft with a large (warbird, whatever) taildragger behind
me. I'd opt for waiting like the Lancair pilot did (mentioned in the
NTSB prelim).

Bela P. Havasreti


The truth is that I've been thinking exactly the same thing--especially
since reading the prelim--and have been advocating the same to my fellow
chapter members.

I am fairly certain that one of the greatest fears of the big warbird pilots
is the possiblity of taxiing into something, and I really doubt that any are
regecting any solution that they really think will help. Nevertheless,
accidents occasionally happen. I have a video of a Fury taxiing straight
into a parked car (fortunately unoccupied) and, if I could recall where I
got it I would post the link.

The mirror idea, whether fixed or removable, is just to provide a possible
"ace in the hole" to possibly notice a changing situation on your six.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote:
I am fairly certain that one of the greatest fears of the big warbird
pilots is the possiblity of taxiing into something, and I really doubt
that any are regecting any solution that they really think will help.
Nevertheless, accidents occasionally happen. I have a video of a Fury
taxiing straight into a parked car (fortunately unoccupied) and, if I
could recall where I got it I would post the link.

The mirror idea, whether fixed or removable, is just to provide a
possible "ace in the hole" to possibly notice a changing situation on
your six.

Just FYI, the article "Taxi Smack" which is he

http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/sample/taxi.html

has some interesting statistics on taxi accidents. Here's a quote from that
article concerning the kind of accident that happened between the TBM
Avenger and the RV-6:

"The next most common kinds of taxi accidents, with nearly 15 percent of
the total, were collisions between two airplanes. Many involved tailwheel
airplanes in which the pilot did not have enough room to make the required
S-turns or where the pilot was looking out one side when the other side
struck another airplane.
[...]
Another common situation is an airplane approaching a crowded runup area
and either striking a waiting airplane while trying to taxi past it or not
stopping in time and striking the empennage of the waiting airplane with a
prop or wingtip."

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:19:25 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

"Bela P. Havasreti" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:20:02 -0400, "Peter Dohm"
wrote:

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...
Mark Hickey wrote
I suspect you're picturing the pilot staring continually at the
video
screen while taxiing... that's not at all what I'd imagine.

Doesn't sound as if Dudley has spent much time driving an automobile
with an in-dash GPS. :-)

Bob Moore

Nope, not much I'm afraid; but on the other hand, a bit more than a few
hours in tailwheel fighter planes if that counts for anything :-)

DH


Being something of a tech guy, I'm a long time fan of cocpit video
displays
for some purposes. I've even come around to the idea that they may be
good
for some of the promary instruments--for instance there's a lot of really
informative stuff to overlay with an HSI...

However, Dudley has me convinced on this one. Swinging the nose from
side
to side and watching outside is most probably the only way, unless all
traces of authenticity are abandonned and the panel is completely
modernized.

At the risk of seeming callous, this appears to be a really uncommon type
of
accident and we really could take the position that "stuff happens." It
is
a really scary way to meet one's demise; but everyone will be alert to
the
hazard for several years, and, even if we do nothing at all, there will
not
be a wave of similar accidents.

OTOH, It could be usefull to know who's on your six, andCessna 150s had
rear
view mirrors as do most modern fighters. Pictures I've seen of WWII
fighters suggest that a lot of P51Ds and P38s may have had them in
service
as well. The 150s had the mirror at glareshield level, while the
fighters
all had/have their mirrors mounted as high as practical.

Peter
Sweltering in four layers of Nomex :-)

FWIW, I've seen another TBM (at Arlington / KAWO) *almost* do the same
thing (taxi into the airplane in front of him). By the time the pilot
realized why everyone was waving their arms / yelling & screaming it
was nearly too late (he locked the brakes and skidded a short distance
on the taxiway and the tail swung to one side).

If anything, this Oshkosh incident has taught me not to get in a big
line of aircraft with a large (warbird, whatever) taildragger behind
me. I'd opt for waiting like the Lancair pilot did (mentioned in the
NTSB prelim).

Bela P. Havasreti


The truth is that I've been thinking exactly the same thing--especially
since reading the prelim--and have been advocating the same to my fellow
chapter members.

I am fairly certain that one of the greatest fears of the big warbird pilots
is the possiblity of taxiing into something, and I really doubt that any are
regecting any solution that they really think will help. Nevertheless,
accidents occasionally happen. I have a video of a Fury taxiing straight
into a parked car (fortunately unoccupied) and, if I could recall where I
got it I would post the link.

The mirror idea, whether fixed or removable, is just to provide a possible
"ace in the hole" to possibly notice a changing situation on your six.

Peter


Here's a video clip of an North American NA-50 / P-64 replica (based
on a T-6 airframe) taxiing into a parked car. Someone posted on
usenet awhile ago the particulars of what happened, and as I recall,
someone in charge at the military base (where the air show was taking
place) made the warbirds taxi down a skinny taxiway that didn't have
enough room for S-turns. The military guy in charge reportedly parked
his staff car in the way of the airplanes and the result is viewable
he

http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...s_into_car.mpg

As I recall, the military (Navy?) paid for the engine tear-down /
inspection + repairs to the P-64 replica.

Bela P. Havasreti

I think another reason why one would want to avoid the video option
and/or stay away from anything that would allow the S-turns to be
avoided (however foolishly) is the fact that an aircraft, or any large,
slow moving vehicle, for that matter, is a lot harder to detect when
coming straight at you. S-turns, no matter how small (leaving the
pilot's visibility factor alone for a moment,) will make you much more
visible to those in front.

I can say from experience, that this happens. In a former life, I did
electronics and communications at a large race track (which would, in
several ways, fit in the same noisiness and distraction class as a busy
flightline) - some of the bigger events had 50-60 thousand spectators
and the biggest, about 100K.

It never failed to amaze me how invisible a 1-ton,
bright-utility-company-orange diesel bucket truck can be to pedestrians
(even the sober ones). I have actually stopped dead because someone
walking towards me just kept coming. A couple have actually bumped into
the front of the truck before noticing. While I typically didn't S-turn
the truck, I could see that I was noticed much more when I was
approaching the people from an angle.

Just my 0.00002 AMUs.

Randy

"Randy Aldous" wrote:

I think another reason why one would want to avoid the video option
and/or stay away from anything that would allow the S-turns to be
avoided (however foolishly) is the fact that an aircraft, or any large,
slow moving vehicle, for that matter, is a lot harder to detect when
coming straight at you. S-turns, no matter how small (leaving the
pilot's visibility factor alone for a moment,) will make you much more
visible to those in front.

I dunno... seems to me that any pilot who has the ability to miss
seeing and/or hearing a warbird coming at them would probably have
already taken himself out of the gene pool. ;-)

Mark "the ground shakes and the sky darkens" Hickey

"Convair" wrote in message
...
Problem is, when you are taxiing in front of one of those big blind
warbirds, how would you know if they have the camera? I'd rather just
make my plane more visible to them and not trust them to see me by
other means. And the idea of stopping the warbird if unsure of being
in the clear, if all the areas the warbird pilot can see are clear,
he'll keep going. Wing walkers are mostly for taxiing in the
showgrounds, once on the taxiway, they are rarely used. Then it's up
to the aircraft to see and aviod each other. Which obviously has
serious flaws.

It's only serious flaw, is that one person neglected to take the necessary
actions, to see as needed. Period.

This isn't rocket science, folks. Every other pilot of a big blind warbird
has done it pretty darn well, up to now.
--
Jim in NC