Winch Launching

flyingmr2 wrote:
I wonder if one of the new generation winches like the Hydrowinch with
a 4000ft launch would make a difference.

The limiting factor is not the winch, but the rope length which in turn
is related to the available runway length. A rough estimate is that the
height with no wind is about half the rope length.

Here's what you can do with a perfectly conventional tost winch and 3000
meters of spectra rope: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlRd9-wxQI (note
that the altimeter is in meters and the vario im m/s)

The limiting factor is not the winch, but the rope length which in turn
is related to the available runway length. A rough estimate is that the
height with no wind is about half the rope length.

Super cool video with an awesome launch. The hydrowinch site says
they have enough room on the spool for 10K of Spectra rope. I guess
if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
regular 2k launch.

BTW:

The main winch at the Long Mynd is paired to a retrieve winch. Using
a single drum the turnaround time is three minutes from the beginning
of one launch to the beginning of the next. No kidding.

Kevin

flyingmr2 wrote:

if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
regular 2k launch.

Just be sure to publish a NOTAM. Nobody expects a winch rope above, say,
3000 feet AGL.

On Jan 5, 9:11 am, John Smith wrote:
flyingmr2 wrote:
if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
regular 2k launch.

Just be sure to publish a NOTAM. Nobody expects a winch rope above, say,
3000 feet AGL.

Lets say, just for argument, that a rope below 1500' AGL would not
deserve a NOTAM but that over 1500' it would. So how long would the
rope be above 1500' on a 3000' launch? My educated guess is that
would be 15 - 20 seconds.

Would a rope the the 1500 - 3000 foot band for 20 seconds every 10
minutes warrant a NOTAM? A typical light plane at cruise travels
about 4000 feet in 20 seconds. Couldn't you just scan the airspace
visually out to three miles before starting the launch? It's really
quiet at a winch start line so you would probably hear an approaching
aircraft. The thing is that winch ropes just aren't in the sky very
long.

Obviously, there are situations that would require a NOTAM but that's
not the case everywhere.

On Jan 5, 8:46 am, flyingmr2 wrote:
The limiting factor is not the winch, but the rope length which in turn
is related to the available runway length. A rough estimate is that the
height with no wind is about half the rope length.

Super cool video with an awesome launch. The hydrowinch site says
they have enough room on the spool for 10K of Spectra rope. I guess
if you have a 10k runway available,. you could get launched into
space! Well, not quite, but it would sure seem high compared to a
regular 2k launch.

The question of just how high a winch launch could go has come up
several times. There is a small group of extreme kite flyers who have
flown L/D ~4 kites up to 30,000 feet using the same Spectra rope used
by glider winches. That suggests that launching a glider to the floor
of Class A airspace would be possible given enough runway and wind. I
expect that someone will do that fairly soon.

If the glider can be launched into a 50 knot wind layer, a tension
controlled winch would automatically reverse the drum rotation
direction and pay out rope - the glider would in effect be a high L/D
kite. The possible release height would then depend on the length of
the rope, not the length of the runway.

CCSC President Rolf Hegele is to be commended for soliciting info from
experts and users before bringing an additional winch for winch-to-
pattern training and glider/winch currency to CCSC. Aerotows will
remain the standard tow-to-thermal operation from this smaller
airfield. I wish to thank many of you experts who have, in the past
year, already responded with Andrew Dignan, the outgoing club
President and current VP, and me. From FARs, FAA & SSA Texts, glider/
aircraft operating handbooks, some internet winch detective work, and
your testimony, a small, dedicated group has 1. put together and
tested a safe winch operation at two locations, 2. improved the
reliability of an older single-drum Gehrlein winch, 3. created
operations procedures and constraints, 4. implimented academics and a
winch endorsement and currency training program/syllibus. In less
than half a year of part-time weekday winching we've winched over 300
times and graduated a dozen'ish current/endorsed winch pilots. Two
northern glider clubs are benefitting from a growing group of
"switched-on", current and capable CFIGs and pilots. - Jim Goebel

What follows is from the Dec 2008 CCSC Newsletter entitled "Winch
Flights in Our 2-33’s" by Tom McDonald

Our long planned CCSC winch demo was conducted successfully on
Saturday, November 1. The group flew seven flights, of which I was
personally flying or instructing on six. Tom Rudolf was signed off as
a winch instructor during the demonstration period. The intent of the
demo was to allow the CCSC and SSD boards to evaluate the program for
use at CCSC, and most of the board saw at least some of the flights.
Previously, the board approved the use of the club’s 2-33 aircraft
in winch operations at Waynesville. We’ve got 28 flights so far in
club equipment, including the 7 at the demo. You can watch some of our
flights at www.youtube.com/tjm3. Or, just go to youtube and search
“ccsc winch.”

Winch stats
Three hundred and four launches to date have used a little less
than two cups of fuel per flight. By comparison, John Antrim’s recent
fuel use study for the Pawnees estimated that a 1000 foot release uses
about 1.3 gallons.
The cost is $15 per flight in our ship, $27 in Stewarts. Even with
the higher cost per flight, transportation between the two airports
will still sometimes make renting Cubby’s 2-33 more practical than
using our own.

What you get
A lot of fun
A winch endorsement (or re-currency) in your logbook
Rapid improvement in flying skills
Potential significant cost savings

Student and currency flying
The price issue is important, but not the main thing. Consider
value, or bang for the buck.
Winch-to-pattern will never replace aerotow in our operation. But
if you are a student, winch training is definitely for you. A lot of
training flights are spent developing skills in the traffic pattern
and landing. A winch operation using two gliders can launch eight to
ten flights in an hour. You will get better at everything in a big
hurry through repetition, and cut way down on those expensive
aerotows.
Currency flying uses much the same equation. One instructor told
me that the winch operation is not cost-effective, because the short
flights result in a very high cost per hour. I disagree. I get a lot
out of these short flights, the point of which is precision. I don’t
need to bounce along behind the Pawnee to do this. Also, I’ve had four
winch-to-thermal flights so far, even with our fairly low release
height.
I can afford all the aerotows I need to stay current and enjoy
myself, but then I’m already licensed. If I were learning, taking
multiple flights learning to fly the pattern and land, the cost today
could well be prohibitive. I doubt that I could have underwritten my
son’s flight instruction a few years ago at current prices.
Even if cost were no object, though, the equation of being a much
better pilot at a much lower cost per flight is hard to beat.

Safety issues
Winch launches have potential for problems. I’m not claiming to be
an expert – I’ve got my checkout, plus about 20 flights as an
instructor. I can tell you with authority that you have to know what
you are doing – as Jim puts it, be “switched on.”
I don’t see the risk as unreasonable, especially when compared to
the 200 foot aerotow rope breaks that we routinely do in training at
CCSC. Jim and Gerry are running a very professional operation. I’ve
reviewed the winch safety recommendations published in the SSA
magazine a few months ago, and we are in compliance. The list of e-
mail consultants to this operation now includes Frank Whitely,
considered the U.S. winch authority, and the well known Derek Piggott.
The engine has a lot of power, unlike some earlier winches. It
uses a light rope with a weak link, not a steel cable. The nose-hooked
2-33 glider has benign stall characteristics – important for our short
field operation. In fact, full aft stick on the winch will not result
in a stall. Rope breaks are a possibility, but not unmanageable. I’ve
had the worst case of max pitch, min altitude simulated winch engine
failure as a surprise training event, and found it easy to cope.

Getting started
Jim Goebel and Gordon Penner developed a PowerPoint presentation
covering the academics, now available online.
Taking a demo flight first might make this ground program more
meaningful, since you would have a better frame of reference. Jim
Goebel has an e-mail list of interested pilots. He sends periodic
notices of available dates, and the rest of us let him know if we can
be there. Email Jim at or me at
to get on the list.

The future
Unfortunately, the recent demo was contentious. Six of the board
members approved the demo on the November 1 date via email, with
another member stating only that he would not make the meeting. There
was also approval in advance to set up and begin winch ops prior to
having a quorum of the board present.
On October 31, one member vigorously objected to conducting the
operation without another board vote. Unfortunately, this resulted in
our representatives on the board spending their meeting discussing the
propriety of conducting this long-planned and pre-approved operation
on that day, rather than considering the merits of the operation
itself. Also, none of the board members not already involved with
winching even came out to the flight line, much less took a demo
flight. So, the demo may not have served its stated purpose. There are
also issues with having what amounts to a commercial operation within
the club that will have to be addressed for the long term. I am
hopeful the incoming board will take a fresh look next year.

bildan wrote:

Lets say, just for argument, that a rope below 1500' AGL would not
deserve a NOTAM but that over 1500' it would. So how long would the
rope be above 1500' on a 3000' launch? My educated guess is that
would be 15 - 20 seconds.

15 to 20 seconds are plenty enough for disaster. But I didn't mean it
literally. (Albeit, the 5000 feet launch in the linked YouTube clip did
require a NOTAM.) Anyway, I didn't mean it literally, but just wanted to
point out that a long rope will interfere with power traffic. This is
solvable, of course, if you have a plan and everybody cooperates. But
you definitely do need a plan.

On Jan 5, 1:31*pm, wrote:
CCSC President Rolf Hegele is to be commended for soliciting info from
experts and users before bringing an additional winch for winch-to-
pattern training and glider/winch currency to CCSC. *Aerotows will
remain the standard tow-to-thermal operation from this smaller
airfield. *I wish to thank many of you experts who have, in the past
year, already responded with Andrew Dignan, the outgoing club
President and current VP, and me. *From FARs, FAA & SSA Texts, glider/
aircraft operating handbooks, some internet winch detective work, and
your testimony, a small, dedicated group has 1. put together and
tested a safe winch operation at two locations, 2. improved the
reliability of an older single-drum Gehrlein winch, 3. created
operations procedures and constraints, 4. implimented academics and a
winch endorsement and currency training program/syllibus. *In less
than half a year of part-time weekday winching we've winched over 300
times and graduated a dozen'ish current/endorsed winch pilots. *Two
northern glider clubs are benefitting from a growing group of
"switched-on", current and capable CFIGs and pilots. - Jim Goebel

* * What follows is from the Dec 2008 CCSC Newsletter entitled *"Winch
Flights in Our 2-33’s" by Tom McDonald

* * Our long planned CCSC winch demo was conducted successfully on
Saturday, November 1. The group flew seven flights, of which I was
personally flying or instructing on six. Tom Rudolf was signed off as
a winch instructor during the demonstration period. The intent of the
demo was to allow the CCSC and SSD boards to evaluate the program for
use at CCSC, and most of the board saw at least some of the flights.
* * Previously, the board approved the use of the club’s 2-33 aircraft
in winch operations at Waynesville. We’ve got 28 flights so far in
club equipment, including the 7 at the demo. You can watch some of our
flights atwww.youtube.com/tjm3. Or, just go to youtube and search
“ccsc winch.”

Winch stats
* * Three hundred and four launches to date have used a little less
than two cups of fuel per flight. By comparison, John Antrim’s recent
fuel use study for the Pawnees estimated that a 1000 foot release uses
about 1.3 gallons.
* * The cost is $15 per flight in our ship, $27 in Stewarts. Even with
the higher cost per flight, transportation between the two airports
will still sometimes make renting Cubby’s 2-33 more practical than
using our own.

What you get
A lot of fun
A winch endorsement (or re-currency) in your logbook
Rapid improvement in flying skills
Potential significant cost savings

Student and currency flying
* * The price issue is important, but not the main thing. Consider
value, or bang for the buck.
* * Winch-to-pattern will never replace aerotow in our operation. But
if you are a student, winch training is definitely for you. A lot of
training flights are spent developing skills in the traffic pattern
and landing. A winch operation using two gliders can launch eight to
ten flights in an hour. You will get better at everything in a big
hurry through repetition, and cut way down on those expensive
aerotows.
* * Currency flying uses much the same equation. One instructor told
me that the winch operation is not cost-effective, because the short
flights result in a very high cost per hour. I disagree. I get a lot
out of these short flights, the point of which is precision. I don’t
need to bounce along behind the Pawnee to do this. Also, I’ve had four
winch-to-thermal flights so far, even with our fairly low release
height.
* * I can afford all the aerotows I need to stay current and enjoy
myself, but then I’m already licensed. If I were learning, taking
multiple flights learning to fly the pattern and land, the cost today
could well be prohibitive. I doubt that I could have underwritten my
son’s flight instruction a few years ago at current prices.
* * Even if cost were no object, though, the equation of being a much
better pilot at a much lower cost per flight is hard to beat.

Safety issues
* * Winch launches have potential for problems. I’m not claiming to be
an expert – I’ve got my checkout, plus about 20 flights as an
instructor. I can tell you with authority that you have to know what
you are doing – as Jim puts it, be “switched on.”
* * I don’t see the risk as unreasonable, especially when compared to
the 200 foot aerotow rope breaks that we routinely do in training at
CCSC. Jim and Gerry are running a very professional operation. I’ve
reviewed the winch safety recommendations published in the SSA
magazine a few months ago, and we are in compliance. The list of e-
mail consultants to this operation now includes Frank Whitely,
considered the U.S. winch authority, and the well known Derek Piggott.
* * The engine has a lot of power, unlike some earlier winches. It
uses a light rope with a weak link, not a steel cable. The nose-hooked
2-33 glider has benign stall characteristics – important for our short
field operation. In fact, full aft stick on the winch will not result
in a stall. Rope breaks are a possibility, but not unmanageable. I’ve
had the worst case of max pitch, min altitude simulated winch engine
failure as a surprise training event, and found it easy to cope.

Getting started
* * Jim Goebel and Gordon Penner developed a PowerPoint presentation
covering the academics, now available online.
* * Taking a demo flight first might make this ground program more
meaningful, since you would have a better frame of reference. Jim
Goebel has an e-mail list of interested pilots. He sends periodic
notices of available dates, and the rest of us let him know if we can
be there. Email Jim at or me at
to get on the list.

The future
* * Unfortunately, the recent demo was contentious. Six of the board
members approved the demo on the November 1 date via email, with
another member stating only that he would not make the meeting. There
was also approval in advance to set up and begin winch ops prior to
having a quorum of the board present.
* * On October 31, one member vigorously objected to conducting the
operation without another board vote. Unfortunately, this resulted in
our representatives on the board spending their meeting discussing the
propriety of conducting this long-planned and pre-approved operation
on that day, rather than considering the merits of the operation
itself. Also, none of the board members not already involved with
winching even came out to the flight line, much less took a demo
flight. So, the demo may not have served its stated purpose. There are
also issues with having what amounts to a commercial operation within
the club that will have to be addressed for the long term. I am
hopeful the incoming board will take a fresh look next year.

Authority, hardly. I do try to help and invite others to jump into
the pool, many heads are better than one. Effective winching is
teamwork and training. Communications is key to safety. CCSC already
operates with a team concept. It would seem trivial to extend this to
winching. What you don't want to do is have everyone learning to
drive the winch, but develop a cadre of competent drivers for the
winch and retrieve. We quibble quite a bit in the winch design yahoo
group over details, yet it's a gas for gear heads and engineers
alike. The process is simple, yet the concepts are complex when it
comes to power, tension, materials, design, and coupling it all
together. Dealing with nature's variables just takes time and
experience. Wind, hill curl, shears, cross winds, convergence zones,
thermals and sink are all transitory events that guarantee it will
take any driver lots of launches to experience and understand what was
different about that last launch. Sometimes you have to compare notes
with the glider pilot to figure what happened. Top end winches will
remove some of this. Boring? Only when the instructor and student
are doing ground school at the launch point. Be ready when the rope
arrives. It's no different than when the tow plane returns. At one
UK club where I winched, if you were staged, you were ready to go when
the ropes arrived. If you were still fiddling, you'd be pushed to the
back of the launch queue. We typically got 1600-1800agl and I could
count on one hand the number of re-lights I took each season (long
wings help;^). At another club, we were very lucky to 1100agl on the
winch. No tow plane option either. Still got long XC flights from
those modest launches. But, I've also been known to jump out of the
winch queue to snag a tow from a transiting tow hook;^).

CCSC is rather short and I think they've defined their goals with a
winch there. Red Stewart Airport is 1.5 miles away, but IIRC, there's
too much weekend traffic to winch effectively, so they've done it
weekdays only. It might be possible to park the winch 1000ft off the
end there, but expansion of CCSC's gliderport would require property
acquisition and a new road, both expensive and probably unlikely
prospects. Thinking 'way outside the box' the largest privately owned
airport in the US, Wilmington AirPark, is 16 miles away and owned by
DHL with an uncertain future. Sure would be interesting if there was
a place for soaring there, but that's pie in the sky, because the real
estate developers are already circling to pick it apart. None ridge
sites with short runs have passed along their winches to others in
time. Establishing a new glider port with a winch may encounter less
nimby problems than with a tow plane. I suspect some at CCSC will
never accept winching for themselves. I hope they will accept it for
others.

Frank Whiteley

A few of points:

1: The mixed traffic problem is an everyday occurrence at many sites
here in Germany. This is a planning and education opportunity. See:
http://www.fsv-karlsruhe.de/fsv/serv...menuSelect=270
for a site where simultaneous power and winch launch takes place. Look
on the BGA site for more sites in English.

2: Cost? 15$ per launch is pretty high, but as this is a "commercial"
winch operation that is probably unavoidable. At our club we have
almost 15 years of cost information and our launches are 4€ (about
5-6$) and this includes long term capitalization for rebuilding the
winch every 10 years (as we are about to do this winter).

3: I consistently get 1200-1500 feet from our 3200 foot field and
looking at my logbook my average "escape" from pattern height is about
70% (stats from after I got my license). Our field is in an area with
suppressed thermal activity and we have no consistent "house thermal",
with a house thermal these rates would be better. And, I must confess,
some of our better pilots have rates approaching 80-90%.

4: We offer ab initio students a deal of 300€ for flights and training
to solo. Of course we have no cost for instructors as they are all
volunteers. This is a revenue neutral proposal for the club for most
students and even when it is not neutral it is still a good
recruitment tool. I know that the costs would be higher in the States
but this is to give some ideas on winch use.

5: Most students here in Germany learn to fly using a winch and go to
areotow later in their flight training. Some clubs give the first few
flights using areotow or a motor glider to speed up the learning and
then go to a winch. We only have a winch but most of our students are
ready for solo after a few months and certification after a season. Of
course we lose many at this point because the German written test is
very complex and we don't have the "weekend Ground School" programs
that are available in the States.

Also, I think (WAO) that users who learn from a winch feel much more
comfortable and may be safer when flying low i.e. "scratching around
low" as they spent their first 50 flights mostly below 1000 feet. And
of course they must learn to thermal away from this height to be able
to fly longer. You will always remember your first climb out in a
thermal you accomplish, maybe better that your solo. I can certainly
remember mine :`)


Bob