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#21
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Thanks
"Gary Drescher" wrote in message . .. | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | news:4ApXg.2566$XX2.1045@dukeread04... | All my flying in the NYC area has been in King Air and | Beechjet aircraft, have not run the VFR corridors. Don't | have a current chart and not sure what they did and what the | rules are. Anybody know of a free download for a terminal | NYC chart that shows the area in question? | | http://skyvector.com/ | | |
#22
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Thanks again.
"Roy Smith" wrote in message ... | "Jim Macklin" wrote: | | Anybody know of a free download for a terminal | NYC chart that shows the area in question? | | http://skyvector.com/ |
#23
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Mucho gratis
"Matt Barrow" wrote in message ... | "Jim Macklin" wrote: | | Anybody know of a free download for a terminal | NYC chart that shows the area in question? | | http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/...20TAC%2069.tif | (31MB) | | |
#24
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Peter R. wrote:
How does an aircraft hit the north face of a building along the river there? One possibility is that the pilot lost control of the aircraft during the turn, say due to a stall. Another possibility is that the pilot misjudged the point at which to begin the turn. -- Peter Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of cancer/cancer-treatment and I basically lie about looking out my 20th floor window over the Hudson at the Holland Tunnel. It's a rare day I don't flinch at least once from a small plane or chopper suddenly looming what seems to be a bit too large in my window... But it's funny, I would not support clapping new restrictive measures on General Aviation around Manhattan. As this brutal illness in my early 40s has taught me (well, I knew it before, but not so deeply), there is an irreducible risk simply to being a meat creature in a world of such physical forces and programmed mortality. Much, I'm afraid most, of reality is bleak and we should preserve the aspects of our culture that allow at least some of us to rise above it some of the time. You folks in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps than exists to date. Hmm sorry for the speech. One must vent occasionally. Back to the issue... it seems a fair speculation from a few of the comments above that the existence of this particular VFR corridor border at this particular spot may have been a determining factor. Maybe Lidle was a crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground? -- B |
#25
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
James Robinson wrote:
"Blasto" wrote: Well, one thing that's needed is a definite time for the crash. If you set Passur for 2:38 you'll see a plane following the CNN account (although CNN has now switched to the Mayor's version)... In fact if you just stare at Passur for a little while you'll see planes all over the place dropping from the display where there are no airports. So assuming the up-the-East-River account is correct, how did Lidle (or the instructor) manage to hit the north face of the building? That seems an impossibly tight turn. You get different data from the different airports in Passur. If you use EWR as the base airport, you can see the plane made two turns around the Statue of Liberty, which you can't see from the other airports. If look at the LaGuardia feed, you can not only use the 10 mile scale, you can also see the aircraft fly up to Roosevelt Island, then make a 180 turn toward the left before disappearing. To correct my earlier post, Lidle's aircraft only made one turn around the Statue. I was confused by the three aircraft that were in the area at the time. As far as the time of the accident, on the LGA feed, you can see the aircraft make a left turn over Roosevelt Island just after 14:41 http://www4.passur.com/lga.html |
#26
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Much, I'm afraid most, of
reality is bleak and we should preserve the aspects of our culture that allow at least some of us to rise above it some of the time. You folks in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps than exists to date. Hmm sorry for the speech. That's a speech that needs to be heard more often. Thanks for sharing it. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#27
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Blasto wrote:
Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of cancer/cancer-treatment Wow, I am very sorry to read this. My thoughts are with you. and I basically lie about looking out my 20th floor window over the Hudson at the Holland Tunnel. It's a rare day I don't flinch at least once from a small plane or chopper suddenly looming what seems to be a bit too large in my window... Not something that you are able to get used to, but rest assured that those pilots are very alert to the surrounding buildings in that area. This is especially notable of the helicopter pilots, who fly that airspace many times a day. snip You folks in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps than exists to date. I have read of airplanes experiencing engine failure that resulted in a ditching in the Hudson, but AFAIK, this is the first fatality in a fixed wing aircraft over the VFR corridor in many years. Keep in mind that this is a very popular flight with pilots and many make it each day. snip Maybe Lidle was a crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground? In looking at the NY Times animation of the flight path, which most likely contains inaccuracies, a thought occurred to me: Given that there was a CFI aboard, I wonder if the Cirrus purposely avoided flying directly over Roosevelt Island and instead remained west of the island and over the water, which significantly reduced what little airspace they had to make the U-turn? The only time I flew up the East River corridor (three or four years ago and in a C172), my decision where to U-turn , which I had thought of when planning the flight, involved doing so well south of Roosevelt Island, over what seemed to be the widest point of the East River. Mind you, I am not at all meaning to compare decision-making skills, but rather to demonstrate that I was concerned both about remaining well clear of the Class B airspace at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island and to be over a wide enough point of the river in which to execute the turn. Admittedly, in thinking of this accident I discovered that my one major weakness in flying the East River that day was the fact that I never even gave the winds aloft any thought and I, too, turned into Manhattan to make the turn. At the time I probably only had about 100 hours. -- Peter |
#28
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message ups.com... Much, I'm afraid most, of reality is bleak and we should preserve the aspects of our culture that allow at least some of us to rise above it some of the time. You folks in your flying machines represent that to me, and any assault on your freedoms would need to be justified by a much denser history of mishaps than exists to date. Hmm sorry for the speech. That's a speech that needs to be heard more often. Thanks for sharing it. Very much along those lines... http://boortz.com/nuze/200610/10122006.html#crash Neil Boortz is a 2500 hr pilot. |
#29
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Matt Barrow wrote:
Very much along those lines... http://boortz.com/nuze/200610/10122006.html#crash Neil Boortz is a 2500 hr pilot. Instructor just identified. California-based instructor (who also held an A&P cert.). |
#30
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Lidle crash: who is wrong?
Peter R. wrote:
Blasto wrote: Thanks Peter and others for your answers. I'm no pilot, just trying to understand. Sadly I'm incapacitated by effects of cancer/cancer-treatment Wow, I am very sorry to read this. My thoughts are with you. Thanks very much. I try not to mention this on Usenet but sometimes the need for a touch of sympathy gets the upper hand. snip. I have read of airplanes experiencing engine failure that resulted in a ditching in the Hudson, but AFAIK, this is the first fatality in a fixed wing aircraft over the VFR corridor in many years. Keep in mind that this is a very popular flight with pilots and many make it each day. snip Maybe Lidle was a crash waiting to happen, but his rendevous with this exact building on this day could have been a function of corridor layout. Maybe there should not be seams in VFR corridors obliging pilots to negotiate high-skill turns over ultra-populated ground? In looking at the NY Times animation of the flight path, which most likely contains inaccuracies, a thought occurred to me: Given that there was a CFI aboard, I wonder if the Cirrus purposely avoided flying directly over Roosevelt Island and instead remained west of the island and over the water, which significantly reduced what little airspace they had to make the U-turn? The only time I flew up the East River corridor (three or four years ago and in a C172), my decision where to U-turn , which I had thought of when planning the flight, involved doing so well south of Roosevelt Island, over what seemed to be the widest point of the East River. Mind you, I am not at all meaning to compare decision-making skills, but rather to demonstrate that I was concerned both about remaining well clear of the Class B airspace at the northern tip of Roosevelt Island and to be over a wide enough point of the river in which to execute the turn. Admittedly, in thinking of this accident I discovered that my one major weakness in flying the East River that day was the fact that I never even gave the winds aloft any thought and I, too, turned into Manhattan to make the turn. At the time I probably only had about 100 hours. -- Peter While reading the above I thought of the video snippets of Lidle in the cockpit played yesterday by CNN. In one, he's over Philly and says something to the effect it's too bad the stadium (where he pitched for the Phillies) was off-limits. He looks almost tempted for a second to say "what the hell" and head there anyway... Now it appears he, unlike your equivalently inexperienced self, followed the corridor to the utmost northern extremity right over Roosevelt Island, maybe to get that last glimpse of Babe's house before decamping for the off-season and a distinct chance the Yanks wouldn't be bringing him back for `07? It's stuff like this that leads me to worry even less as I watch all the hurtling steel and composite out my window. Celebrities and athletes are odd, rare cases, so I feel the great majority of pilots are more reliable, conscientious, etc.,. It makes me want to say something like "Maybe there should be a rule requiring anybody from a non-aviation background with fewer than 100 hours to be accompanied by an instructor over the Hudson and East River", but of course Lidle *was*.... I can see the instructor taking over just 4 seconds too late. After all, they missed safety only by about 50 horizontal feet. That much and they would have just cleared the NE corner, casting a shadow on the strip of grass between the building and the river and then getting back over the water. -- B |
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