Decommissioning of TIS stations

Well folks, I think the outsourcing of flight service was only the first
of many short-sighted and irresponsible actions to hit General Aviation
that are a direct result of the FAA's inability to manage its costs.

If what I've read is true, the FAA will soon begin decommissioning TIS
transmitter sites (22 to be exact) -- the very sites that those of us
with the GTX330 Mode-S transponder depend on to receive traffic
information at reasonable cost.

If I didn't know better, I'd say that L3 has some low friends in high
places, since they're pretty much the only people that will benefit from
the decommissioning of TIS in the foreseeable future.

For your reference:

http://www.avionicswest.com/archive/330MFD.htm

We had to buy a new transponder last year, and we didn't feel it prudent
to invest $17K in a Skywatch for a little 172, so the GTX330 seemed like
the best choice to get traffic data into the cockpit at the time. I
believe we spent about $2500 extra for the GTX330 and the wiring to our
GNS430, and I'll tell ya -- without TIS, I view this as $2500 down the
crapper. And I can't be the only one who feels this way.

I'd long known about ADS-B and the FAA's plans to replace TIS with TIS-B
(accessible via an ADS-B UAT), but I thought they'd only reduce the
planned number of TIS sites and maintain those until the ADS-B systems
provided an equivalent coverage area.

On the contrary, ADS-B is still a pipe dream with only a couple states
covered, and the deployment map on the ADS-B site
(http://www.flyadsb.com/) hasn't changed in ages. At this rate, I'll be
collecting social security by the time they fully deploy ADS-B --
assuming they don't change their minds, whine like a bunch of spoiled
brats, and claim they don't have enough money to finish deployment.
Needless to say, I'm ****ed and I want someone's head on a platter. Of
course, in this world of "no consequences management", I'm a practical
guy, so a check for $2500 will also suffice.

So why am I bitching here? Because we need to mobilize GTX330 owners
and get them to bitch to Blakely, Garmin, and anyone else who will
listen to common sense. I'm not expecting TIS to live forever, but if
we allow them to decommission TIS prematurely, we set a dangerous
precedent for the future handling of the Air Traffic Control
infrastructure, the costs of which the average GA pilot and owner will
increasingly bear.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Doug Vetter wrote:

If what I've read is true, the FAA will soon begin decommissioning
TIS transmitter sites (22 to be exact) --

What and/or who do you suppose is the reference for the article you posted?

So why am I bitching here? Because we need to mobilize GTX330 owners
and get them to bitch to Blakely, Garmin, and anyone else who will
listen to common sense.

Shouldn't AOPA be stepping into this, too?

--
Peter


















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Peter R. wrote:
What and/or who do you suppose is the reference for the article you posted?

Tom is usually pretty accurate about the "dirt" he finds in the
industry, so while he doesn't name names, I'd accept that it's coming
from the FAA via Garmin (otherwise, why would Garmin be asking owners
whether they have their GTX330 connected to a MFD?). The FAA shouldn't
care, unless they were trying to gauge how bad the backlash will be so
they can start their damage control efforts.

Shouldn't AOPA be stepping into this, too?

I copied Phil on my post. He's replied to my emails on the weekend in
the past (a tireless worker, no doubt), but I haven't heard back from
him on this subject yet.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

I called my Garmin dealer and he didn't know anything about it. In
fact, he was putting in a 330 to read out on a 530.
I called Garmin and the man answering didn't know about it and would
"pass it up the line".
I called AOPA and they knew and said it was true. They are on it and
have no further info re how many or which ones. The will post info on
epilot.
I am writing AOPA, Garmin, and FAA. We have to stop this as it is one
of the best things for GA in a while. If you have seen and flown with
it, you will get it.

Chuck Mealey
Archer 2185B

Chuck wrote:
I called my Garmin dealer and he didn't know anything about it. In
fact, he was putting in a 330 to read out on a 530.
I called Garmin and the man answering didn't know about it and would
"pass it up the line".
I called AOPA and they knew and said it was true. They are on it and
have no further info re how many or which ones. The will post info on
epilot.
I am writing AOPA, Garmin, and FAA. We have to stop this as it is one
of the best things for GA in a while. If you have seen and flown with
it, you will get it.

Chuck Mealey
Archer 2185B

Thanks for checking up on this Chuck. TIS is indeed a great advantage
for GA.

In fact, it saved our ass just the other day. On departure, we got TIS
reception at about 800 feet AGL and it imediately gave us a traffic
alert for an aircraft at 12 o'clock, well less than a mile. I initially
thought it was a phantom (TIS has one flaw...it will sometimes show
one's own aircraft as a target), but I ruled that out because the
phantoms always show "+00" (same altitude), yet this target was shown as
200 feet below altitude, and climbing. We quickly turned 45 degrees and
my copilot saw the aircraft pass just under us on his side. I never saw it.

TIS-B / ADS-B will be MUCH better, but we have to protect TIS until
those systems are fully operational with equivalent coverage. Heck, if
I can get another 5 years of service on our new 330 transponder before
we're forced to buy a UAT, I'll consider the extra $2500 spent on the
330 worth it.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Doug Vetter wrote:


TIS-B / ADS-B will be MUCH better, but we have to protect TIS until
those systems are fully operational with equivalent coverage.

Isn't the source of the traffic information the same for both TIS (mode-S) and
TIS-B (the traffic part of ADS-B)?

What is it that's being decommissioned? Is it the mode-S (which TIS-B doesn't
use) transmitters? ...or is the data being cut off at the source?

Thanks. Dave

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1119360496.186398@sj-nntpcache-3...

Isn't the source of the traffic information the same for both TIS (mode-S)
and TIS-B (the traffic part of ADS-B)?

Yes and no.

TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify the
traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data to your
aircraft.

TIS-B uses both Mode S and UAT. Source data may be either ADS-B data or
Mode S surveillance data. The Mode S data is converted to ADS-B format
(lat, lon, alt, ID) by the ground system. Since very few people are ADS-B
equipped, most of the TIS-B data being broadcast is converted Mode S
surveillance.

What is it that's being decommissioned? Is it the mode-S (which TIS-B
doesn't use) transmitters? ...or is the data being cut off at the source?


I'm assuming that the 'decommissioning' of TIS is being driven by bean
counters with the maintenance budget. Either that or it's a case of a 'this
program is just too cheap, it can't be any good' mentality at the FAA.
After all, it cost less than $2.5M to put in the system nationwide. It's
not much more than a $10K workstation with a pretty much autonomous
software application plugged into the Mode S ground station.

Gerry

Dave Butler wrote:
snip
What is it that's being decommissioned? Is it the mode-S (which TIS-B
doesn't use) transmitters? ...or is the data being cut off at the source?

Details are sketchy, but apparently it's just the TIS transmitters.

I imagine the backend gear that generates the data from the radar
equipment will likely remain and serve as the feed for TIS-B, but don't
quote me on that.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Gerry,

TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify the
traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data to your
aircraft.


Uhm, not quite, AFAIK. It does use Mode S datalink for the uplink, but all
traffic information is derived from center radar data. Mode C and A targets
are reported just as Mode S targets are.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Gerry,


TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify the
traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data to your
aircraft.



Uhm, not quite, AFAIK. It does use Mode S datalink for the uplink, but all
traffic information is derived from center radar data.

None of the info is derived from the Center. Center doesn't have mode S
equipment. Only approach controls have mode S. A center may use an
approach controls mode S radar, that happens with Salt Lake and our
radar here at Billings.