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#11
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
Newps wrote:
You're talking empty weight. Gross weight is the max the airplane can weigh. No, I'm not. That's part of the problem. It is completely reasonable to expect, with work that involves neither airframe nor powerplant, that the gross weight won't change (even though empty weight has). But is it *legal* to operate under that assumption, or must a new W&B list the "new" gross weight even if it is not changed? It appears, from some of the other postings, that a new W&B need not describe the gross weight if it's not altered. I (and some others) have merely been "spoiled" by always seeing the gross weight on any W&B. - Andrew |
#12
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
I am not sure why you are so worried about the gross weight. You have
documentation for the new empty weight and CG, right? So whatever you decide to put in the airplane, animal, vegetable or mineral, you can weigh and/or calculate to do your W&B for a particular filght. As long as you are inside the CG envelope and not over takeoff weight (and can show your work) you should have no hassles. Right? "Andrew Gideon" wrote in message gonline.com... Newps wrote: You're talking empty weight. Gross weight is the max the airplane can weigh. No, I'm not. That's part of the problem. It is completely reasonable to expect, with work that involves neither airframe nor powerplant, that the gross weight won't change (even though empty weight has). But is it *legal* to operate under that assumption, or must a new W&B list the "new" gross weight even if it is not changed? It appears, from some of the other postings, that a new W&B need not describe the gross weight if it's not altered. I (and some others) have merely been "spoiled" by always seeing the gross weight on any W&B. - Andrew |
#13
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 19:51:19 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote: Some work was done on an airplane. The new W&B is of the "removed/added" sort and computes a new empty weight and moment arm. But the document doesn't state the gross weight. The changes were all avionics; no airframe or power plant work was done. So I'd expect the gross weight to remain unchanged from the prior W&B. But does the new W&B need to state the gross weight, even if it is unchanged? If not, do we then need both documents to cover the legalities of documentation in the airplane? Or did the person that wrote the new W&B err? - Andrew The aircraft gross weight, also called maximum weight,is the maximum authorized weight of the aircraft and all of its equipment as specified in the Type Certificate Data Sheets (TCDS) for the aircraft. It is usually listed on the loading graph or chart supplied by the manufacturer, or perhaps elsewhere in the POH/AFM. The FAA publishes a handbook (FAA-H-8083-1) on weight and balance. With regard to GA aircraft, the following seems to pertain: "Weight and Balance Revision Record "Aircraft manufacturers use different formats for their weight and balance data, but Figure 5-2 is typical of a weight and balance revision record. "... "The weight and balance revision sheet should clearly show the revised empty weight, empty weight arm and/or moment index, and the new useful load." HOWEVER, figure 5-2 shows NO sign of an entry of useful load (or maximum weight). It shows the old empty weight of the airplane; the various adjustments for removal and addition of various avionics with regard to weight, arm and moment; and the computed new empty weight, moment and CG of the aircraft. And you were looking for clarity? Good luck. Bottom line -- it's probably not a requirement. And changes in allowable maximum weight should be reflected in the STC data for the modification that allowed that change; and documented according to the requirements in that STC. "We're from the FAA, and we're not happy until you're not happy!" Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#14
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
[...] And you were looking for clarity? Laugh Yes. - Andrew |
#15
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
Let it go, Louie. Let it go.
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message online.com... Ron Rosenfeld wrote: [...] And you were looking for clarity? Laugh Yes. - Andrew |
#16
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
Andrew Gideon wrote:
I have found 23.1583, which states that maximum weight and center of gravity limits are part of the aircraft manual, and 23.1519 which states that weight and CG limits are a part of operating limitations. Part 23 has no meaning for my aircraft. As I said, the empty weight/momemt is in an entirely different document than where the CG envelope is defined in my plane and many others I have flown. But what's the documentation requirement for equipment changes which alter one or more of these factors? 23.21 discusses this for type certification, but not for upgrades. Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information. |
#17
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
Ron Natalie wrote:
Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information. That's the conclusion to which I've been coming. I'd be more comfortable, though, if I found something (ie. in part 43) which discussed what to do when the maximum gross weight is altered. Since two of our club aircraft have had such upgrades, it would just be more clear to me if I could see the distinction drawn between modifications that do and do not alter gross weight. I'd also have liked to see some mechanism whereby a line was drawn for those modifications which might or might not impact gross weight. Yes, it should be obvious. But that uses common sense, and I fear the outcome should I make the mistake of applying common sense to legal (esp. FAA {8^) matters. - Andrew |
#18
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
A new weight and balance.
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message online.com... But what documentation is required for aircraft changes which alter the empty weight and CG? If that documentation doesn't list the gross weight, is it safe (ie. safe in a ramp check {8^) to assume that it's unchanged? - Andrew |
#19
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:54:02 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote: Ron Natalie wrote: Well since the max weight or CG doesn't change (unless you're doing a major modfication), just the empty weight, the equipment list with a ne emtpy weight/moment would seem not to need to duplicate that information. That's the conclusion to which I've been coming. I'd be more comfortable, though, if I found something (ie. in part 43) which discussed what to do when the maximum gross weight is altered. Since two of our club aircraft have had such upgrades, it would just be more clear to me if I could see the distinction drawn between modifications that do and do not alter gross weight. What does the STC say? (I think they are available on line if you could post the info regarding the STC). I'd also have liked to see some mechanism whereby a line was drawn for those modifications which might or might not impact gross weight. Yes, it should be obvious. But that uses common sense, and I fear the outcome should I make the mistake of applying common sense to legal (esp. FAA {8^) matters. - Andrew Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#20
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Should a W&B list gross weight?
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
What does the STC say?Â*Â*(IÂ*thinkÂ*theyÂ*areÂ*availableÂ*onÂ*line *ifÂ*youÂ*could post the info regarding the STC). I thought of that, and I tried to locate it. I could not. It is: sa703gl. I did locate plenty of planes that had this done, though, which was fun. I found a couple of NTSB reports regarding aircraft that had had this done, which was less fun. - Andrew |
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