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#1
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To the guy writing the heli lesson diary:
I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind: Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch? R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if you are paying for Hobbs time. Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get the ship back in trim. And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the case or either he's wanting to get a new ship! You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal. A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have not became heli pilots. Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I can assure you this is not the way it's done. Regards, Mark N26394 |
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#4
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Steve R. wrote:
I don't know who this guy is but please don't take him too seriously. You know Steve I'm just a lurker, and armchair pilot like many in this group but it did seem like he had a bone to pick with that post. Your stories have been great. Please keep em coming! Hear hear..... Some of the best postings in this group is some time. Informative, detailed, kinda makes you feel your sitting their beside him. Don't know about the rest of the people in this group but that's the sorta stuff I like to read. |
#5
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"Steve R." wrote in message ...
Hi Kevin, "The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net wrote in message ... On 6 Sep 2004 23:20:19 -0700, (helicopterandy) wrote: A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have not became heli pilots. My postings are anectdotal only. They are for entertainment PERIOD. If anyone is assuming this is part of some freebie flight training, they need to look into another hobby/profession. Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I can assure you this is not the way it's done. Since I'm not a professional writer and am not trying to write a column for any aviation related magazine or fill out the pages of some training manual, I'll continue to write what I'm feeling. If you choose to assume "shaking" is "violent" and "full left pedal" really isn't (funny, I don't remember seeing you in the cockpit next to me) that's fine. I don't take offense at what you're saying and I do see your point. However, since (again) these posts are anecdotal in nature, I don't see the need to accurately document each and every control movement and its associated effect on the helicopter. I don't know who this guy is but please don't take him too seriously. Your stories have been great. Please keep em coming! I've met a few rotorcraft rated pilots (of the full size and FAA certified variety) with 8k, 10k, 20k, etc. hours under their belts that weren't as sharp on some issues as they like to think they were. I'm not saying that they are not competent pilots. Just that, with all their time, they sometimes start thinking they can do no wrong. It's not uncommon amoung pilot types for any kind of aircraft. Yes, there are more than a few RC pilots that lurk around here. So what. The high time, full size pilots really shouldn't "assume" that we're all totally ignorant about helicopters and their dynamics just because we don't sit in the thing. I've done a LOT of studying with regards to helicopter dynamics through the years in an attempt to better understand why my model did what it did the other day. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I think I've got certain basics down pretty solidly. :-) Perhaps my "bluster" will make the "Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd" (Talk about derisive) consider additional training before strapping in. I certainly hope so. I'd also hope the same would go for those like the guy you're responding to. I don't care if he's got 8k hours or more under his belt or not. Additional training is never a bad thing. If I may quote Steve R; You certainly may! :-D Fly safe. Steve R. PS: I was surprised by this high time pilot asking "why" you do a cool down period on the R22. I know that the cool down procedure is required on turbine machine but I can't remember being in any full size helicopter (piston or turbine) where they "didn't" do a cool down of some sort at the end of the flight. Dear Sir or whomever you are (I am responding NOT to the diary writer here but to the other guy who chose to jump into the middle of this), I was refering to Mr. Diary writer's stated FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN of a helicopter that requires two minute max before clutch disengagement!!! What's so hard to understand about that? If the guy's school is making him "cooldown" for five minutes and he's paying for Hobbs time (and again maybe you don't know what Hobbs time means, it stands for every second the engine has oil pressure) then he's paying for time that is absolutely not required and all he's doing is paying for time "easy time" that the school is not earning. PS I notice he (Mr Diary Writer)chose not to respond to this question so maybe he's going to take it up w/ his school as he should!! $200 plus an hour adds up really fast. Oh yeah...one more thing if I may: Believe me when I say with absolute certainty that you don't have the "basics" down at all, in any form or fashion if you've never taken a lesson. RC hobbycrafts are a wee bit different than the real thing. Go give it a try. Dear Mr Diary Writer, Thanks for the reply. I apprecaite the fact that you aren't a professional writer and I only wanted to urge you to be careful in your descriptions as you/we never know who will read this stuff and take you literally. Seriously, the experimental crowd may do so. And you were right re my "derisive" comments about calling the Rotorway/Safari crowd "deathwishers" and I shouldn't have used that term. Although I wouldn't fly one of those ships at gunpoint. Take care and blue skies, and if you ARE using full left pedal and your CFI didn't jump on the controls, he's got more guts than me! Regards, Mark N26394 |
#6
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"helicopterandy" wrote in message
m... Dear Sir or whomever you are (I am responding NOT to the diary writer here but to the other guy who chose to jump into the middle of this), I was refering to Mr. Diary writer's stated FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN of a helicopter that requires two minute max before clutch disengagement!!! What's so hard to understand about that? If the guy's school is making him "cooldown" for five minutes and he's paying for Hobbs time (and again maybe you don't know what Hobbs time means, it stands for every second the engine has oil pressure) then he's paying for time that is absolutely not required and all he's doing is paying for time "easy time" that the school is not earning. PS I notice he (Mr Diary Writer)chose not to respond to this question so maybe he's going to take it up w/ his school as he should!! $200 plus an hour adds up really fast. Oh yeah...one more thing if I may: Believe me when I say with absolute certainty that you don't have the "basics" down at all, in any form or fashion if you've never taken a lesson. RC hobbycrafts are a wee bit different than the real thing. Go give it a try. Regards, Mark N26394 Hi Mark, First, as a matter of fact, I DO know that a Hobbs meter is. Second, the post I responded to "was" a response from "Mr. Diary Writer." If you'd have paid a little more attention, you might have caught that, and he "did" explain the situation with his particular flight school with regards to the extended cool down time. Maybe you ought to reread that part. Third, I do have a bit of duel instruction if full size helicopters so I've got a better idea of what's involved than you'll probably give me credit for. Frankly, you don't have a clue as to what I do and do not know on the "basics" of rotorcraft dynamics. Your response to me simply proves my point as far as I'm concerned. I've been flying RC helicopters for 22 years and the little bit of duel instruction I've received in the full size birds only proved to me that the machines you know and the one's I know aren't that different in the grand scheme of things. The biggest difference is the pilots point of view. I'll throw your last statement back at you, "Have you ever tried the RC side?" Again, I don't claim to be an expert on everything related to rotorcraft but I, and a lot of RCer's out there, aren't as ignorant as you seem to think. Many of us are, but not all! Your attitude was pretty smug with regards to RCer's and those who choose to fly experimental full size helicopters, whether you intended it to be or not. Just because the machine is FAA certified doesn't mean isn't so superior. Yes, there are standards the machines have to meet but they can still have significant problems. Do a search on the early history of Robinson's R22. They got off to a pretty rocky start in the beginning. Fly Safe, Steve R. |
#7
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"Steve R." wrote in message ...
"helicopterandy" wrote in message m... Dear Sir or whomever you are (I am responding NOT to the diary writer here but to the other guy who chose to jump into the middle of this), I was refering to Mr. Diary writer's stated FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN of a helicopter that requires two minute max before clutch disengagement!!! What's so hard to understand about that? If the guy's school is making him "cooldown" for five minutes and he's paying for Hobbs time (and again maybe you don't know what Hobbs time means, it stands for every second the engine has oil pressure) then he's paying for time that is absolutely not required and all he's doing is paying for time "easy time" that the school is not earning. PS I notice he (Mr Diary Writer)chose not to respond to this question so maybe he's going to take it up w/ his school as he should!! $200 plus an hour adds up really fast. Oh yeah...one more thing if I may: Believe me when I say with absolute certainty that you don't have the "basics" down at all, in any form or fashion if you've never taken a lesson. RC hobbycrafts are a wee bit different than the real thing. Go give it a try. Regards, Mark N26394 Hi Mark, First, as a matter of fact, I DO know that a Hobbs meter is. Second, the post I responded to "was" a response from "Mr. Diary Writer." If you'd have paid a little more attention, you might have caught that, and he "did" explain the situation with his particular flight school with regards to the extended cool down time. Maybe you ought to reread that part. Third, I do have a bit of duel instruction if full size helicopters so I've got a better idea of what's involved than you'll probably give me credit for. Frankly, you don't have a clue as to what I do and do not know on the "basics" of rotorcraft dynamics. Your response to me simply proves my point as far as I'm concerned. I've been flying RC helicopters for 22 years and the little bit of duel instruction I've received in the full size birds only proved to me that the machines you know and the one's I know aren't that different in the grand scheme of things. The biggest difference is the pilots point of view. I'll throw your last statement back at you, "Have you ever tried the RC side?" Again, I don't claim to be an expert on everything related to rotorcraft but I, and a lot of RCer's out there, aren't as ignorant as you seem to think. Many of us are, but not all! Your attitude was pretty smug with regards to RCer's and those who choose to fly experimental full size helicopters, whether you intended it to be or not. Just because the machine is FAA certified doesn't mean isn't so superior. Yes, there are standards the machines have to meet but they can still have significant problems. Do a search on the early history of Robinson's R22. They got off to a pretty rocky start in the beginning. Fly Safe, Steve R. STEVE, POINT TAKEN. WELL PUT. I DO HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT THIS SITE IS ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT I'VE EVER SEEN TO EVEN BE ABLE TO KNOW WITH ANY CERTAINTY OF WHO IS SAYING WHAT TO WHOM. I KNOW IT'S A FREE SITE BUT IT REALLY SEEMS LIKE GOOGLE COULD COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY TO ORGANIZE THESE FORUMS. GO LOOK AT THE YAHOO GROUPS FORUM OR VERTICAL REFERENCE'S FORUMS OR PRUNE'S OR MANY OTHERS TO SEE HOW MUCH EASIER THEY ARE TO READ AND KEEP UP WITH. REGARDS, MARK PS COME TO VIRGINIA AND I'LL GIVE YOU A RIDE. |
#8
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"helicopterandy" wrote in message om... STEVE, POINT TAKEN. WELL PUT. REGARDS, MARK PS COME TO VIRGINIA AND I'LL GIVE YOU A RIDE. Thanks Mark. I may just take you up on that! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. |
#9
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"helicopterandy" wrote in message om... I don't post here often and judging by your attitude later in this thread I'm sure most of us are glad you don't. I cannot imagine a flight school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of collective time. The R22 datcon works on engine running. The 44 runs on collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown before clutch release. Depends how hot you got it and the ambient temperature. You are looking for _significant_ CHT reduction so as not to shock cool the engine, not an arbitrary time. If the school owns the aircraft I'm sure they want the engine to go TBO and so treat it kindly. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if you are paying for Hobbs time. And I suppose they then run the clock back so they can avoid the time-due maintenance the extra hobbs time would have clocked up? Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need for full left pedal. Ever. Presumably then you haven't flown one in a stiff wind? A gusty crosswind from the right can easily demand some heavy left pedal. You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal. He didn't say violent, just shimmying and shaking. A slow and high approach will do this. Once ETL is lost the thing will be hovering OGE and bangs about bit. OK it's on the wrong part of both the curves that matter but sometimes it's the safest or only way into a landing area. It doesn't make it abnormal, just not ideal. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have not became heli pilots. This is usenet, nothing to do with google. Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I can assure you this is not the way it's done. From memory I think I found the whole training thing full of adjectives. What seems normal now seemed fraught a few years ago. Regards Andrew |
#10
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GW De Lacey wrote:
It just occurred to me that I'm x no-archived and he won't see the message unless it's quoted by someone else. Are you sure...???? I don't see anything in your post or headers that would indicate that. Now I suppose if I wasn't so lazy I'd go check your last post to see if it showed up in GOOGLE, but as I said... If I wasn't so lazy. |
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