Crouch Strap story

In article ,
ojunk says...
Perhaps DG offers this as an option? They seem to be the only real
innovaters left on the soaring scene.

Ian

Perhaps, but Herr Weber has always been one of the most vocal in skeaking out,
saying that 5th. belt/crotch straps are not needed.

I believe they offer a 5th belt, but not the six belt style.

--
-------
Eric Greenwell USA

I use a 4-point for positive G (only) aerobatics and have
found that with the shoulder harnesses placed at the right height,
a fairly firm cushion, and the belts tightened REAL
tight, I feel VERY secure.

For me setting up cushions and chute and harnesses in such a way
that I have excellent reach for everything, excellent vis, and
am yet quite snugly held in seems to make me feel secure.
I have a little trouble resnugging if I have to shift or
unbuckle momentarily, but it only seems to take
a few tries to get it back.

Ommitting for the moment the idea that perhaps 5 or 6 points might
be better, I wonder how important snugging it up is instead.
I've always assumed that very tight is better than
not, but haven't really heard much opinion. There was some cushion
discussion a while back and I have a fairly thick, fairly firm cushion
now (fortunately I'm quite short so no canopy issues). But
what about snugging tight? Anyone with thoughts or stories?

In article ,
Martin Gregorie wrote:
On 6 Jun 2004 16:55:50 GMT, Ian Cant
wrote:

The 'crotch strap' is what used to be known as a 'negative-G'
strap. Usually it works to keep your skull away from
the canopy during the bumpy bits of sky; rarely, it
helps you in a crash by preventing submarining. However,
a single strap is both inconvenient and potentially
painful. A better design is a double strap, like an
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

At 23:42 07 June 2004, Hl Falbaum wrote: (snip)
BTW - Motorcyclists and their accidents demonstrate
that the genitalia are
tougher than you may think---Thank the Lord!
Thanks Again
--
Hartley 'KF' Falbaum
USA

If you had ever suffered from fuel tank nuts you might
take a different view. Makes the eyes water just thinking
about it. The main reason why my glider will never
be fitted with a single crotch strap, there are certain
parts of the body not designed to absorb high loads,
and yes I speak from bitter experience. There are other,
less painful ways to avoid submarining.

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 16:42:04 -0500, JC Cunningham jrc at visi dot
com wrote:

It must have been my browser that was having a problem. I use Opera.
When I used internet explorer it came up fine.

No problem here with Opera 7.51.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 19:50:01 +0100, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

Are our 5-point rotary action quick-release units the same as the car
racing gang use?

Following myself up: I've just been speaking to Willans Harnesses
(both the Stockbridge Racing operation and Willans Harnesses, the
division that used to do glider harnesses).

Stockbridge said that under no circumstances would they sell any of
their harnesses or upgrades for gliding use and quoted both
certification and product liability as the reasons for this.

Willans Harnesses do custom harnesses and tree climbing equipment and
used to make gliding harnesses. They no longer do glider harnesses in
any shape or form because the cost and time involved in obtaining JAR
certification was so great that they saw no nett benefit to themselves
in obtaining it.

It appears that Schroth is currently the only game in town on this
side of the pond.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Ed,

My only question has to do with the title of this thread. Was that
intentional or subliminal? I'm assuming if you do install the 5th
belt you might be enjoying a permanent crouch for the reminder of your
life

One of the guys I work with suggested another title: Crouching
tiger, hidden strap.

-bob

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...

Willans Harnesses do custom harnesses and tree climbing equipment and
used to make gliding harnesses. They no longer do glider harnesses in
any shape or form because the cost and time involved in obtaining JAR
certification was so great that they saw no nett benefit to themselves
in obtaining it.



Martin.

These belts do not conform to the TSO from the FAA either.
It's an American process to allow and document minor alterations
to the glider on a form 337 for Type Certificated aircraft. There
may be a similar process available to you poor souls across the pond.
Ask you administrator (I don't know what you call them) or the BGA
if there is a process similar to a Form 337/field approval for you to
follow.
I suspect that there is. The JAR regs are so close to the FAA regs in most
regards
that I suspect you can get it accomplished.

Scott.

About the use of safety belts in cars: a few years ago a European car
manufacturer wanted to produce a very fast sports car, and wished to
install a formula one type safety belt system. He had to change back to
the usual three-point system with automatic roll-up mechanism, as it
was impossible to get the car approved for road use with the far more
effective formula one system!


--
stephanevdv
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

JC Cunningham wrote:
John Galloway wrote:


At 18:12 07 June 2004, Jc Cunningham wrote:

John Galloway wrote:


Further to my posting yesterday I have identified the
6 point harness in our Std Cirrus as as Luke PRO6F
designed for single seat race cars.

See:

http://www.lukeracing.co.uk/rec.php?cat=17

Flying with it today was the most comfortable I have
ever been in a glider as I felt totally secured with
the lap strap held low and no tendency to slide forward
in the seat pan with the lap strap rising as happens
in so many gliders. Even a deep seat pan like the
front seat of a Duo comes nowhere near in terms to
achieving that feeling.

It may be non approved but I really don't care as the
benefits for comfort and safety are so clear cut.

John Galloway


Could you double check and repost the URL. I am getting
a blank page
when I try to load the page.


It must have been my browser that was having a problem. I use Opera.
When I used internet explorer it came up fine.

It might also be your firewall or the level of security you are using in
Opera. It comes in fine with Netscape IF I turn off my Symantec
firewall (still have the router for protection).
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

On Saturday, June 5, 2004 8:59:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Byars wrote:
I sent the following to our magazine nine months ago and didn't receive an acknowledgement or receipt. I guess it was not suitable for them so I thought I would share it with ras to maybe provoke some safety discussion. efb10-11-03-rev.6-5-04You may be interested in my latest crotch strap experience.I'm still analyzing my June 2003 accident and the cause. More later on this. The role of the crotch strap is significant and worthy of mention.The last half dozen gliders I've had I added a crotch strap (usually available from Wings & Wheels), which easily clicks into the bottom, front or 5th slot of the standard Gadringer belt hardware. I secure the other end, which terminates with the belt into a triangular link, with a quarter inch hole that I bolt to the seat pan with a large "wood" washer behind the seat pan. My gliders are Experimental category so this is legal.I always heard that the main purpose of a crotch strap was to keep the lap belt across the upper thighs and prevent it sliding up to the stomach area. I have since learned better.It of course depends on the direction of the accident loads and the direction of the inertia of the body as to how all restraint straps come into play.Many glider accidents involve "dropping in" vertically wherein the tailbone (in the L-1, L-2 area) or higher are damaged so the belts don't help much. You seldom see accidents with lap belt overload, but it happens. I have a sad memory of helping remove a dead friend from an inverted Ventus cockpit where the lap belts on both sides had pulled lose from the seat pan. Fortunately rare but it happens.In my "incident" the nose of the glider hit hard ground at about a 60 plus degree angle. The "load" was about along the longitudinal axis of the glider. Since in our modern gliders (ASW-28 in my case) we recline (sit supine), the inertia of my body was toward the nose with only the crotch strap to resist. Actually Waibel designed the seat pan to take some of this forward load against the bottom of the thighs. In this seating the knees are bent more upward.The nose of the glider (along with my feet) was crushed in a calculated energy-absorbing manner. Thank you Gerhardt Waibel! I think his design and the crotch strap saved my knees.I was conscious and lucid until the helicopter dropped me off at the Medical College of Georgia Trauma Center.After that I really was not with it for a couple of weeks, but after that time I suddenly noticed that my groin area was still quite swollen. I realized that my crotch area had sustained a significant load and that all things considered had kept my body from moving more forward and no doubt helped minimize the leg/knee damage. I had no shoulder strap or lap belt marks or soreness.Since my guess is that a significant number of glider accidents impose loads and body reactions similar to mine, I recommend a crotch strap. Trying to distribute the load to the pelvic area by wearing an athletic "cup" may be good for some flights, but for some flights there are other disadvantages. Many contest pilots regularly wear a male external catheter and I don't think both would work. With just the crotch strap I always had to be careful that the strap was adjusted somewhat to the right, was not too tight, and did not interfere with the flow from the catheter that was to the left.I suggest reading Chip Bearden's posting which appeared in the rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup on Nov.20 1998 which outlines a more complex but better seat belt design.I hope this discussion will create more thought about glider accident safety.Ed Byars

After flying my 1-35 for about 4 years, generally without a parachute, I suddenly was very uncomfortable on longer flights with a parachute - my lap belt would ride up no matter what I did. Maybe the belts or my spine stiffened up?! Adding a crotch strap was the answer, very straightforward - I got a sketch for a suggested doubler from K&L Soaring, though I had to trim it to avoid interfering with aileron travel.