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~ Bush: "I'm God's Delivery Boy" ~



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 20th 04, 12:34 PM
Guy Alcala
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Stephen Harding wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

As for the God-fearing attributes of the Framers, they were
politicians of the time and the custom was to express a level of
civility and piety in their public discourse.


And very little has changed in that regard today, when even the most secular pols feel
a need to make a fetish of religious belief and piety (prayer breakfasts, well-covered
church attendance, etc.), at least when they're up for (re)election or involved in
some scandal.


I think it's interesting that any politician publicly embracing
religion seems always portrayed as either partaking in demagoguery
or attempting to create a state religion.


I'm unaware of that being the case. I think I can tell the difference between political
humbug and true belief. I have no doubt about, say, the sincerity of Senator Lieberman's
beliefs, nor do I (generally) doubt the sincerity of President Bush's. But when they start
making a big public deal out of it and mentioning God at every (politically) opportune
moment, it starts to smell.

Seems secularists want religion strictly confined within the walls
of church, temple, mosque, whatever, not be seen in public on pain
of "promoting religion".


How do you figure that? You can decorate your house, you car, or yourself with Crosses,
Stars of David, Crescents, Ankhs, Prayer wheels or Pentagrams all you want. You can spend
every waking minute of every day praising your god(s) as much as you chose. Just don't try
and force me to agree with you, and don't try to force me to listen to you in a public
building/space that I'm constrained to be in. You want to stand on your soapbox in the
park and tell everyone _who wants to listen_ about the wonders of your religion, knock
yourself out. But don't do it at the top of your lungs to people who have no interest in
what you're saying, and who can't move out of earshot while still enjoying the location.

Allowing nativity scenes on public commons is NOT "promoting
religion", and is actually suppressing it!


No, it's saying that government can not favor one religion over another, nor can they
sponsor one or many. You want a nativity scene, feel free to pay for it (or get like-minded
individiuals to do so) and put it up on your lawn. Which is pretty much what happens
around here. You want to have a stone sculpture monument of the Ten Commandments? Be my
guest, and mount it in your yard, home or (in some cases) business. But it doesn't belong
in the Courthouse.

The founding fathers
were keenly aware of all the problems that resulted from government
promoting religion. On the other hand, they were deeply religious
and were not prone to create an agnostic or atheist US either.


Some were deeply religious, some went through the motions because it was expected, some were
agnostic or atheist. You'd be pretty hard-pressed to describe Benjamin Franklin as "deeply
religious." The important thing is that they all had the legal right to be of whatever
religion they chose (including no religion) without any effect on their rights (well, in
theory; practice was obviously often different, if you were Catholic, Jewish, etc.), after
the passage of the 1st Amendment

Bush has every right as an individual to make the religious based
statements he has.


Sure does, if he's speaking for himself and not for me.

He apparently is sort of "born again" and his
words more than likely aren't pandering to a religious audience.


He has pandered to his religious base quite a lot, in the last election and now this one.
Sometimes he's sincere, but in some cases he's throwing them a bone after making a political
calculation. The hesitation about coming out and saying he'd support a constitutional
amendment banning gay marriage being a case in point. The decision itself, and the timing
of it, was a political calculation through and through.

Until he starts giving a particular religious group tax breaks or
government funding, I'm not too concerned that the important
Constitutional principle of church/state separation is being
violated.


And fortunately the Supreme Court has just found against the guy who sued the state of
Washington (IIRR), because they refused to pay the scholarship they had awarded him when he
wanted to use it to attend theology school. He seemed like a decent sort, but I certainly
don't want my taxes to pay to support his particular faith (or any other). If his
denomination needs ministers and he can't afford it himself, they can pay his way if they
choose, but it shouldn't be coming out of my pocket.

Guy

  #22  
Old March 20th 04, 04:22 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Robey Price wrote:

snip

Actually I'm paraphrasing the secular humanist view, we'd never call
ourselves christians.


Or, as the televangelists would have it, "Sekoolar Hoomanist," with

roughly the
same intonation they use when saying "Spawn of Satan" ;-)


All I have done is shown Price the limitations of his 150 year outdated
"science".


  #23  
Old March 20th 04, 04:25 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

The Constitution guarantees the "free expression thereof" and what you

are
claiming as a right is the repression of the constitutional rights of
others, Guy.


You are one seriously f*cked up dude. You have the right to watch gay
porn...I have the right NOT to watch. You have the right to worship as
you choose...I have the right NOT to worship.


But you have no right to interfere in the "free exercise thereof" WRT
religion. Your gay tendancies are of no interest to me.

It is you that is attacking the civil rights of others, Guy.


It bears repeating...you are one seriously f*cked up dude. Funny, but
mo' debly f*cked up.


Geological evidence indicates that if evolution occurs at all it must do so
within a single generation, completely falsifying the entire notion of a
slow emergence of a new species over time.


  #24  
Old March 20th 04, 04:36 PM
Robey Price
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

All I have done is shown Price the limitations of his 150 year outdated
"science".


LOL...you have distilled Richard Dawkins v Stephen Jay Gould to your
terms, i.e. four or five sentences. Too funny, they could never have
done that...

Juvat

  #25  
Old March 20th 04, 04:47 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

All I have done is shown Price the limitations of his 150 year outdated
"science".


LOL...you have distilled Richard Dawkins v Stephen Jay Gould to your
terms, i.e. four or five sentences. Too funny, they could never have
done that...


Jay Gould, the pope of the church of darwin, is apropriatly dead.

Geological evidence demonstrates that species are created through some
mechanism following a global cataclysim, completely in contrast to darwinian
dogma.


  #26  
Old March 20th 04, 05:02 PM
Robey Price
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

But you have no right to interfere in the "free exercise thereof" WRT
religion.


I'm not...Guy's not...believe what you want, worship as you want. Be
my guest. My lack of faith, my desire to be free from religion,
doesn't interfere with you right to worship.

JT you're just being silly.

Your gay tendancies are of no interest to me.


Actually that'd be your gay tendencies...and that's okay with me too.
Whatever you do with another consenting adult is your business.

Geological evidence indicates that if evolution occurs at all it must do so
within a single generation, completely falsifying the entire notion of a
slow emergence of a new species over time.


What's it gonna be JT. Stop waffling and pick a position. "If"
evolution occurs?

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."

You're just being silly. I could care less if you choose Dawkins or
Gould, they disagree about the details of evolution, but they both
support evolution over creationism. I have no problem with that. Those
differing opinions are interesting, but I don't care about the
specifics. There is so much out there I find more interesting and the
autodidact in me has a limited amount of time to spend on "finding
things out."

Which all goes back to the point, your religious beliefs are your
beliefs. I don't want to take those away from you or anybody. Trying
to transform this great country into some christian state would be as
dangerous to the world as a proliferation of islamist states. So keep
religion out of government.

Juvat

  #27  
Old March 20th 04, 06:10 PM
Tarver Engineering
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"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

But you have no right to interfere in the "free exercise thereof" WRT
religion.


I'm not...Guy's not...believe what you want, worship as you want. Be
my guest. My lack of faith, my desire to be free from religion,
doesn't interfere with you right to worship.

JT you're just being silly.


Sure, but I made you laugh.

Your gay tendancies are of no interest to me.


Actually that'd be your gay tendencies...and that's okay with me too.
Whatever you do with another consenting adult is your business.


Such projection.

Geological evidence indicates that if evolution occurs at all it must do

so
within a single generation, completely falsifying the entire notion of a
slow emergence of a new species over time.


What's it gonna be JT. Stop waffling and pick a position. "If"
evolution occurs?


Hey, I'm just presenting science.

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."


No, I am pointing out that the notional hypothesis of species occuring over
a long peoriod of natural selection is disputed by physical geological
evidence. The quantum physics stuff is just experimenatally demonstrable
and repeatable.

You're just being silly. I could care less if you choose Dawkins or
Gould, they disagree about the details of evolution, but they both
support evolution over creationism. I have no problem with that. Those
differing opinions are interesting, but I don't care about the
specifics. There is so much out there I find more interesting and the
autodidact in me has a limited amount of time to spend on "finding
things out."


Fast evolution rapidly approaches creation, to a casual observer.

Jay Gould believes in God now.

Which all goes back to the point, your religious beliefs are your
beliefs. I don't want to take those away from you or anybody. Trying
to transform this great country into some christian state would be as
dangerous to the world as a proliferation of islamist states. So keep
religion out of government.


I am not posting religion, you are.


  #28  
Old March 21st 04, 02:21 AM
Robey Price
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

Hey, I'm just presenting science.


According to Michael Denton?

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."


No, I am pointing out that the notional hypothesis of species occuring over
a long peoriod of natural selection is disputed by physical geological
evidence.


This is a hoot!

Too funny, this is actually hilarious. You are summarizing part of
Gould's position between Punctuated Equilibrium and his concept of
"phyletic gradualism."

Apparently you think the crux of evolution is "the notional hypothesis
of species occuring over a long period of natural selection." I'm
guessing your emphasis in "long period." That would only be an
aspect/theory of a mechanism of evolution, but...evolution is still a
fact.

Fast evolution rapidly approaches creation, to a casual observer.


Fast evolution? You mean Gould's & Eldredge's Punctuated Equilibrium
that:

PE postulates that speciation events comprise most of the evolutionary
change seen in adaptation.

PE explains the abrupt appearance of new species in the fossil record.

PE explains the relative stasis of most species.

PE asserts "species selection" as the way in which major adaptive
trends proceed.

PE also makes a statement concerning the pattern of fossils found.

Jay Gould believes in God now.


Too funny, sounds like you believe in Jay Gould and Punctuated
Equilibrium.

I am not posting religion, you are.


Well alert your ISP 'cause somebody posting with your IP adress
asserted in this thread that society without religion leads to
psycosis; and our (Guy and me) freedom FROM religion in the US is a
violation of the 1st Amendment rights of believers.

Juvat

  #29  
Old March 21st 04, 02:48 AM
Tarver Engineering
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Posts: n/a
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"Robey Price" wrote in message
...
After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

Hey, I'm just presenting science.


According to Michael Denton?

You've already told us evolution has been discredited by Einstein (the
gentleman of Quantum physics and relativity) now you're suggesting
there may be something to, as you called it, "dog breeder science."


No, I am pointing out that the notional hypothesis of species occuring

over
a long peoriod of natural selection is disputed by physical geological
evidence.


This is a hoot!

Too funny, this is actually hilarious. You are summarizing part of
Gould's position between Punctuated Equilibrium and his concept of
"phyletic gradualism."


Gould's attempts to band aid together a plausable mechanism to replace
Darwin's impossible one is what was hillarious.

Apparently you think the crux of evolution is "the notional hypothesis
of species occuring over a long period of natural selection." I'm
guessing your emphasis in "long period." That would only be an
aspect/theory of a mechanism of evolution, but...evolution is still a
fact.


Once the period becomes short enough it is Creation.

Fast evolution rapidly approaches creation, to a casual observer.


Fast evolution? You mean Gould's & Eldredge's Punctuated Equilibrium
that:


PE postulates that speciation events comprise most of the evolutionary
change seen in adaptation.


PE explains the abrupt appearance of new species in the fossil record.

PE explains the relative stasis of most species.

PE asserts "species selection" as the way in which major adaptive
trends proceed.

PE also makes a statement concerning the pattern of fossils found.


Nice band aids, but evolution becomes creation when explaining the fosil
record that way.

Jay Gould believes in God now.


Too funny, sounds like you believe in Jay Gould and Punctuated
Equilibrium.


I believe Jay Gould made a frantic attempt to bring evolution into line with
the fosil record, due to physical evidence proving Dariwin's notional
hypotesis WRT the origin of species was false. Even in the evolutionist's
odd world where the scientific method has a different definition than all of
the rest of science, the criterion of "falsability" is demonstrated in that
Darwin's idea is undoubtably false.

I am not posting religion, you are.


Well alert your ISP 'cause somebody posting with your IP adress
asserted in this thread that society without religion leads to
psycosis; and our (Guy and me) freedom FROM religion in the US is a
violation of the 1st Amendment rights of believers.


My assertion is a concept directly from Freudian psycology and is science,
not religion.


  #30  
Old March 21st 04, 03:46 AM
Robey Price
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After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, "Tarver
Engineering" confessed the following:

Gould's attempts to band aid together a plausable mechanism to replace
Darwin's impossible one is what was hillarious.


Gould's "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory" at 1474 pages, some
band-aid.

Once the period becomes short enough it is Creation.


This is too funny. How short is this period? And when did creation
occur?

[snip the short strokes of punctuated equilibrium]

Nice band aids, but evolution becomes creation when explaining the fosil
record that way.


Quoi? JT are you trying to tell us you believe in "creation science?"

A simple Yes or No will do.

Even in the evolutionist's odd world where the scientific method
has a different definition than all of the rest of science,
the criterion of "falsability" is demonstrated in that
Darwin's idea is undoubtably false.


JT evolution is a fact...we see evidence all around us every day. The
specific mechanisms of natural selection and evolution are debated all
the time.

My assertion is a concept directly from Freudian psycology and is science,
not religion.


OK...Frued.

Again please clarify for me, are you implying you believe the
so-called "creation science?" An answer would go a long way in
understanding your posts.

Juvat

 




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