Dear Mary...

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Well, you're full of it.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q19425787

http://www.rnw.nl/society/html/main010815.html

http://www.equality.org.za/news/2003/01/31bmar.htm

So, you are lying, or just ignorant.

We can add Canada to the list.


They can declare that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but
that won't make it so.

Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:52:38 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Well, you're full of it.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q19425787

http://www.rnw.nl/society/html/main010815.html

http://www.equality.org.za/news/2003/01/31bmar.htm

So, you are lying, or just ignorant.

We can add Canada to the list.


They can declare that the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, but
that won't make it so.

Of course not. But since marriage is a legal state, those governments
can redefine it as they wish.

Before 1967 marriage between the races was illegal in many states.
Society didn't collapse when those marriages were made legal. Society
will survive this.

People like you? Civilization will leave you in the dust.

--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Of course not. But since marriage is a legal state, those governments
can redefine it as they wish.


Why is marriage a legal state? What gives government the authority to
redefine it? Is marriage not older than government?

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:30:30 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Of course not. But since marriage is a legal state, those governments
can redefine it as they wish.

Why is marriage a legal state? What gives government the authority to
redefine it? Is marriage not older than government?

Not really. People did pair up, but the legal concept of being joined
in the eyes of the law is relatively recent.

There are two kinds of marriage: civil and religious.

Civil marriage is what you get when you file for the license, then
sign it along with the person who conducted the ceremony and a couple
of witnesses. You can be married by anyone who registers with the
state. My sister is getting married next week, and my brother will be
performing the ceremony. All it takes is the license fee (about $80
in my county) and being able to show that you understand the rights
and obligations of marriage.

Religious marriage is what you get in your church or synagogue. It is
separate from civil marriage, but the two are often taken care of in
the same ceremony. It doesn't matter is you have a full wedding mass
conducted by an Archbishop.. the state doesn't recognize the wedding
until that slip of paper is signed.

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Now, I'd like you to explain what has happened to your life now that
over 3,000 gay couples have been married in San Francisco. Are you
married? I am, for almost 13 years now. My marriage is still solid
as a rock. What harm is being done? Explain it to me.

--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Not really. People did pair up, but the legal concept of being joined
in the eyes of the law is relatively recent.

There are two kinds of marriage: civil and religious.

Civil marriage is what you get when you file for the license, then
sign it along with the person who conducted the ceremony and a couple
of witnesses. You can be married by anyone who registers with the
state. My sister is getting married next week, and my brother will be
performing the ceremony. All it takes is the license fee (about $80
in my county) and being able to show that you understand the rights
and obligations of marriage.

Religious marriage is what you get in your church or synagogue. It is
separate from civil marriage, but the two are often taken care of in
the same ceremony. It doesn't matter is you have a full wedding mass
conducted by an Archbishop.. the state doesn't recognize the wedding
until that slip of paper is signed.

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.


Who is being denied marriage?



Now, I'd like you to explain what has happened to your life now that
over 3,000 gay couples have been married in San Francisco.


By "gay couples" I assume you mean same-sex couples. No same-sex couples
have been married in San Francisco. Marriage requires persons of the
opposite sex. Homosexuals are free to marry persons of the opposite sex
just as heterosexuals are. No rights are being denied to anyone.



Are you married?


Yup.



I am, for almost 13 years now. My marriage is
still solid as a rock. What harm is being done? Explain it to me.


Harm is not the issue.

Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

Now, I'd like you to explain what has happened to your life now that
over 3,000 gay couples have been married in San Francisco.

By "gay couples" I assume you mean same-sex couples. No same-sex couples
have been married in San Francisco. Marriage requires persons of the
opposite sex. Homosexuals are free to marry persons of the opposite sex
just as heterosexuals are. No rights are being denied to anyone.

Wrong. over 3,100 people have been married. Not one of thiose unions
has been successfully challenged. In four different hearings judges
have refused to stop the marriages from occuring.

I am, for almost 13 years now. My marriage is
still solid as a rock. What harm is being done? Explain it to me.

Harm is not the issue.

Actually, it is.
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail

WE *ARE* UMA
Lemmings 404 Local

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...
Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:21:33 GMT, a stranger
called by some "Steven P. McNicoll"
came forth and told this tale in us.military.army


"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
.. .

Since marriage does grant rights, it is unconstitutional to deny those
rights without due process of law (14th Amendment, Section 1) Here in
California, Article I, Section 31 of the State Constitution forbids
discrimination in public contracts, which includes marriage.

Who is being denied marriage?

Same-sex couples.

I suppose this has been answered earlier in the thread, but, if
you don't mind me asking, why would 'same-sex couples' want to get
married anyway ??

Pensions ? Keeping the house when a partner died...?? What ??
Is it a legal thing, or a religious thing ??

Just wondering.....

--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Same-sex couples.


You can't be denied something that does not exist.


Wrong. over 3,100 people have been married.


No, they just think they've been married.



Not one of thiose unions
has been successfully challenged. In four different hearings judges
have refused to stop the marriages from occuring.


Marriages cannot occur between persons of the same sex regardless what
judges do or say.

In article k.net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Douglas Berry" wrote in message
...

Of course not. But since marriage is a legal state, those governments
can redefine it as they wish.


Why is marriage a legal state? What gives government the authority to
redefine it? Is marriage not older than government?



Excellent point, for a change. Yes, marriage is older than government.
Coming-of-age rituals, such as circumcision, First Communion,
confirmation, etc., are older than government. Becoming a recognized
cleric is older than government.

Religions do very nicely managing these rites on their own. The rules of
one religion may very much conflict with those of another, such as
Islamic polygamy, State Shinto obligation, etc. To a large extent, we
leave these things up to the religious leadership.

I actually don't have a problem if, according to the teachings of Islam
or of the older traditions of Latter-Day Saints, people want to enter
into a religiously-approved plural marriage. I'd simply like the
governemt to record the marriage and the associated property,
inheritance, parental control, medical surrogacy rules.

In other words, people can have religiously defined marriages, plus
civilly defined unions/contracts. Since in the US we have freedom not to
be in a religion, logically, the state should be able to record the
legal details of a civil union.

But you keep repeating a religious definition, but a definition that
applies only in specific religions. I will ask specifically: the Koran
allows, with conditions, a marriage to be defined between a man and up
to four wives. By your reasoning, isn't that a religiously defined
marriage? Or are you saying that only SOME religions get to define
marriage?