Discussion on dealing with future ADIZ Incursions by light A/C

("George Patterson" wrote)
I've seen photos of Phalanx batteries being installed in the city.
Probably just a matter of time.


Great system. Many things going up in the Cessna's general direction. So
what happens to those projectiles that miss the little Cessna?


Montblack

No, the solution was EDUCATION of pilots, BY PILOTS

One fine day overhead DC at 2000ft AGL in a C150.
Student to instructor: 'Do you think we are allowed to fly here?'
Instructor: 'Hmmm, lets have a look.....Yep, I'm sure we can'
Student: 'Oh, what makes you so sure?'
Instructor: 'Look at all those F16's, they fly here'

-Kees

In article , Larry Dighera wrote:
I think you're correct. The government is running scared of a
potential domestic insurrection as a result of population growth, and
taking this opportunity to put into place the (il)legal basis for
responding to any hint of it.

Whilst the vast majority of Americans enjoy a good, at least middle
class lifestyle, there will be no revolt or insurrection. Can you
imagine any typical middle class person sacrificing their nice
comfortable life for civil war? No, neither can I. It ain't gonna happen
unless the standard of living in the US collapses (and by collapse, I
mean to near famine levels - countries like Mexico which are endemic
with grinding poverty aren't in danger of insurrection).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article et, Mike Rapoport wrote:
I agree with Jay on this one. The GA community loses everytime some idiot
does something like this. They should shoot the next one down.

I strongly disagree - to do so would be unjust, especially to the people
whom the wreckage falls upon. In a densely populated area like DC, it's
quite likely that someone on the ground would be hurt or killed by the
flaming wreckage accelerated towards earth at 9.8m/s^2.

Throw the book at them for sure - just as you would anyone who violated
a P-area or penetrated the ADIZ without following the proper procedure.
But killing them would be barbaric, and do far more harm to GA than
using proper justice.

Do you really believe people should be killed by other people for making
honest mistakes in a civilized country? I certainly don't.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("George Patterson" wrote)
I've seen photos of Phalanx batteries being installed in the city.
Probably just a matter of time.


Great system. Many things going up in the Cessna's general direction. So
what happens to those projectiles that miss the little Cessna?


Montblack

From what I understand, It's been considered and factored into the equation.
Hit or miss, the order to destruct WILL be issued at a certain point.
Each time this happens, the trigger finger squeezes just a little bit more.
There are rational military people on the job when this happens who have
been given a certain amount of empowerment to take reasonable steps if in
doubt..as was the case with this Cessna, but there is a "go" point within
the perimeter that if reached, the decision becomes automatic and will NOT
be reversed. If some clod wanders in deep enough to reach that point,
collateral damage is no longer the issue. It's been factored in as
"acceptable loss".
This is not the same world that it was before 9-11.
Dudley Henriques

quoted from Jose's post:

What threat?

Serious question - identify the "threat" we are supposed to respond
to,
and put it in context with other similar threats, and then it would
make
sense to talk about possible reactions.

Thank you, this is the heart of the question--the ADIZ creates a buffer
zone that allows civil defense time to characterize the nature and
intent of unidentified aircraft before they can reach a high value
target. But its most serious flaw is that presently, we have no good
way of sorting out incursions due to navigational error or
communications failures from a genuine hostile attack, without
scrambling fighters and evacuating people, which resulted in the fiasco
we saw on the 11th and also the fiasco that resulted when the Kentucky
Governor's plane's transponder failed.

Contributing to the problem is the very planes that are most likely to
cause the problems--light trainers with rudimentary navigation and
dodgy communication equipment, and (arguably) less skillful PIC's--
also present the least viable potential threat. Because the current
technology only allows for a "one size fits all" interdiction policy,
we have the mess we're in currently. If there were a way to determine,
at point of incursion, what the plane is, we could tailor the response,
and avoid the bad publicity and general ignominy we saw with this last
incursion.

Hank

"Dudley Henriques" dhenriques@noware .net wrote in message
. net...

....snip...
This is not the same world that it was before 9-11.


Actually, it is. We are just trying very hard to pretend it is not.

There was terrorism before 9/11. There were nuclear bombs, ground wars, air
wars, genocide, many *hundreds* of thousands of people killed on side or
another. There were oppressive dictators and benevolent democracies. There
were the nourished, the privileged, and the starving. There were civil
airliners shot down. There were the "just" wars, and there were the imperial
oppressions.

There were air blitzes on cities and countryside, with thousands dying.

What is so different now?

Serious question - identify the "threat" we are supposed to respond
to, and put it in context with other similar threats, and then it would
make sense to talk about possible reactions.


Thank you, this is the heart of the question--the ADIZ creates a buffer
zone that allows civil defense time to characterize the nature and
intent of unidentified aircraft before they can reach a high value
target.

Why is this necessary? It's not done with cars, itenerant rental vans,
people with colds or ebola virus, or ideas on the internet.

Why is this done only at the Capitol? It can be reasonably argued that
there are equally high value targets around every major city, and parts
of the midwest.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article , Icebound wrote:
There was terrorism before 9/11.

Indeed. I've lived most of my life (and got on with it) with 'the
shadow of terror'. In fact, news of yet another bomb from either the IRA
or one of the loyalist paramilitaries was so common place it barely
registered with me at one point.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Jose wrote:

It's not done with cars, itenerant rental vans,
people with colds or ebola virus, or ideas on the internet.

Well, cars and trucks are intercepted entering Manhattan. Easy enough to do with
an island.

Why is this done only at the Capitol? It can be reasonably argued that
there are equally high value targets around every major city, and parts
of the midwest.

Hush! Mayor Daley has been asking exactly the same question for years. You want
to have to fly around another ADIZ to get to Oshkosh?

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.