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Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
Sunny wrote: "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... snip Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear what you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.? Have you always been so full of your own importance? Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves, but do talk about their mates. Well, I was going to stay out of this, but since it appears it'll go on forever, might as well throw two cents in. First, ISTM Art has some points and deserves a fair reading. The stuff written about the concept of combat vets vs first-timers fills libraries--the "seen the elephant" thing. IMO it is a pertinent comment, and explaining it is difficult. As to ground crews not having the same camaraderie, it certainly is the case today, and has nothing to do with rank--it's the shared risk thing. Those who expose themselves to enemy fire do not have the same regard for those who don't. LOL! And I guess where that enemy fire occurs is critical, too..."No, no, no, you don't qualify as a real he-man-hero, you were killed/wounded to the rear of phaseline Dork..." (There is a peculiar derision in the term "REMF"--and I've never met a front-line vet that doesn't get it, while almost no non-vets do.) It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . . . not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind." So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought better of you, Cecil. BTW, you are aware that the single worst enemy inflicted casualty events in both ODS and OIF occured when those nasty REMF's you mention were involved (the Scud that his the temporary barracks/warehouse during ODS, killing a bunch of USAR CSS-types, and the "rear area" ambush of that maintenance company during the latest conflict)? Seems the term "REMF" has lost a lot of its meaning in more modern conflict--how many "REMFs" were among those killed during the bombing of the Beirut barracks in 83? How about those REMF's who died in the Pentagon? I think you need to take your "he who feeds the hay" bit and store it in an approriate oriface; the fact that you consider yourself somehow superior to any other vet makes you as sad a case as Art is. On the "cowardice" thing: in my very limited experience, folks react differently. Some can't take it. Some can take it but won't do anything. Some aren't scared. The latter make me most nervous, but all are hazardous to your health. And once you have to make allowances for someone, you never look at them the same . . . and you watch them. Guys who refuse to perform and force someone else to greater risk in their place get ostracized. As, to a lesser degree, do guys whose performance is suspect. The labels don't matter all that much. Second, if my limited understanding of this netiquette thing is right, the line is generally drawn at ad hominems. It's perfectly okay to heap scorn on the statement, personal remarks about the author are bad form. (The pithy little car sex thing was a good example of the former, and witty, too.) I think we (and know I) would enjoy this more if we could keep the personalities out of it. Ask Art; he is the one who inevitably started all of this long ago by directing offensive remarks at all veterans who he feels did not match up to the level of service he has identified in his own strange manner. You must have missed his recent bit about WWII starting only at D-Day, and his ridiculous defense of that remark in the face of those who (rightly) protested that plenty of other folks were fighting and giving their lives in Italy, North Africa, etc., well before June 6 1944. Brooks rgds, KTF |
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Those who expose themselves to enemy fire
do not have the same regard for those who don't. Hogwash! I've got several friends who have missed (just due to poor timing and luck) DESERT STORM, ALLIED FORCE, ENDURING FREEDOM and IRAQI FREEDOM and I hold them in the same regard as I do those that saw action. In fact, many of those that have missed out I hold in higher regard then many of the crewmembers who have logged combat time. BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
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Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks) Date: 7/4/03 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: 1e6ea40d.0307041829.467f0108@p There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you* have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that. Brooks So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right? Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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"ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: Honor to those who came forward From: (Kevin Brooks) Date: 7/4/03 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: 1e6ea40d.0307041829.467f0108@p There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you* have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that. Brooks So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right? Art, are you actually aware that everything you used, from your aircraft/ammo/, the food you stuffed into your mouth and the toilet paper you used, was supplied by merchant marine, heroes every one of them, who lived every waking and sleeping hour, in the knowledge and fear that the next loud noise could be the torpedo that smashed their world apart. Judging from what I have read so far, from you, I don't think so which is sad. But I suppose in your words they were "non combatants".? |
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(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward From: (Kevin Brooks) Date: 7/4/03 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: 1e6ea40d.0307041829.467f0108@p Snippage of previous response to your direct inquiries duly noted, as usual... There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you* have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that. Brooks So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right? LOL! Everytime you open your mouth in this kind of thread, you reveal yourself as being that much more of an idiot. You don't *volunteer* to serve in the 101st Airborne (which is no longer airborne, anyway--except in name; it is an "air assault" division, and has been for aboutthirty-plus years). Neither do you volunteer to serve in the 82nd Airborne Div--you might volunteer to be assigned to FT Bragg, but getting into the 82nd is just the luck of the draw from the pool of those folks who had a 5P (IIRC) suffix affixed to their DMOS. And yes, I did volunteer for airborne *school*, you dim-witted ninny. Does that now make me some kind of a big HERO in your myopic view? I have given many years of *voluntary* service in both combat and construction engineer units--why does that not suffice as proof of honorable service? What a sad little man you are to have to resort to tearing down all others in order to puff up your own pitiful sense of self-worth. Brooks Arthur Kramer |
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(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward From: (Kevin Brooks) Date: 7/4/03 1:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: (ArtKramr) wrote in message ... On this 4th of July let us honor all who fought. But let us especialy never forget the special few who came forward volunteering and said, "Take me. I'll go" It was these men who formed American elite units; Marines, Airborne, Seals, Submarine Service, Air Corps and Air Forces. We owe them all a special thanks. Arthur Kramer Another self-serving platitude from Art; who'd have thunk it? If I were to tell my Dad (a volunteer for the USAAF during WWII with missions over japan in B-29's under his belt) or my late brother (who volunteered for service during the Vietnam conflict and flew UH-1's as a Dustoff pilot) that they were "elite", I'd be laughed out of the house. Neither ever figured himself to be a bit better than any of the other millions of servicemen who performed their service, no matter how mundane, during those conflicts. Since when has service in the USAAF, or USAF for that matter, made someone "elite" amongst their other service peers? Brooks Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear what you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.? . Arthur Kramer Because you keep denying that the service of those of us who happened to be born after WWII and found our service periods did not include some form of direct combat even occured. Chalk it up to a senior moment or whatever, but FYI we have spent one heck of a lot longer in periods of peace during the intervening years than we did at war. And I was ten years old when my brother went to Vietnam--should I have lied about my age and joined up? But don't worry, you don't have to say anything about my Cold War service--or that which occured after that period. On behalf of the millions who served alongside me, I'll tell you "you're welcome" anyway. Brooks |
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Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: Cecil Turner Date: 7/5/03 7:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: Kevin Brooks wrote: It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . . . not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind." So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought better of you, Cecil. Mr Brooks, I may be overly sensitive, but as a (retired) military officer I expect a certain amount of civility and courtesy, especially from fellow servicemen. Since you refuse to discuss issues without gratuitous personal comments, I decline to correspond with you further. goodbye, KTF Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is to never explain and never complain,. And never allow youself to be put on the defensive. It is a sign of weakness. Besides, Brooks is a bold face liar not worthy of too much time. I think we have already given him far more than he ever deserved..He clearly has no place among any band of brothers. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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ArtKramr wrote:
Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is to never explain and never complain,. And never allow youself to be put on the defensive. It is a sign of weakness. Besides, Brooks is a bold face liar not worthy of too much time. I think we have already given him far more than he ever deserved..He clearly has no place among any band of brothers. Art, I can only say that I am tired of *all* the personal comments in these threads, and will not participate further. good day, KTF |
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