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#1
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Flarm and stealth
As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many
US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km range, with climb rates attached, could be a major competitive issue. With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in competitions is being actively debated. I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn? Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol, involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous. Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we don't have to rethink this all from scratch! John Cochrane |
#2
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Flarm and stealth
Clarification for US pilots: "Stealth mode" means other people can't
see you from a great distance, nor see your climb rate, on devices attached to flarm. In return, you can't see them or their climb rates either; they only show up when they pose a collision threat. If you select "stealth mode" this is reflected in the flarm IGC file, so scorers can verify the setting. But I'm hoping for more actual experience from Europe than theoretical opinions from the US! John Cochrane |
#3
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 5:06*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: Clarification for US pilots: "Stealth mode" means other people can't see you from a great distance, nor see your climb rate, on devices attached to flarm. In return, you can't see them or their climb rates either; they only show up when they pose a collision threat. If you select "stealth mode" this is reflected in the flarm IGC file, so scorers can verify the setting. But I'm hoping for more actual experience from Europe than theoretical opinions from the US! John Cochrane Keep in mind that Powerflarm is said to have longer range than Flarm. -T8 |
#4
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 2:06*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: To heck with stealth, what about ECM? |
#5
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 5:29*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
To heck with stealth, what about ECM? That's why the payload is proprietary and encrypted ;-) See ya, Dave |
#6
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Flarm and stealth
Am 28.10.2010 21:53, John Cochrane wrote:
As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km range, with climb rates attached, could be a major competitive issue. With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in competitions is being actively debated. I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn? Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol, involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous. Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we don't have to rethink this all from scratch! John Cochrane In the (regional) competitions that I attended, there was no requirement of Flarm stealth mode, and almost all pilots had their Flarm configured in open mode. So everyone was in fact free to hide himself from others at the cost of not receiving tactical informations himself. I have no knowledge of a competition here in Germany where the rules required stealth mode, but there may have been such competitions that I'm not aware of. Others might want to jump in here. I have the butterfly display installed in my glider, and I personally found it quite useful to get the information if a glider circling 3km in front of me actually had a strong or weak lift, or to get the info that in 10km distance there was a lift that I could reach straight on, without having seen the glider that send out the signal. In competitions this info might be (relatively) less valuable, because one (at least me) always tends to be in the proximity of a few other competitors, so normally the Flarm tactical information is only used to confirm my decision made on 'gut feeling'. It is much more valuale on normal X/C flights, where I often get information about thermals 10-15km ahead. This quite often lead to decisions that I probably wouldn't have made without that information. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE |
#7
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 4:29*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Oct 28, 2:06*pm, John Cochrane wrote: To heck with stealth, what about ECM? too close for missiles i'm switching to guns? |
#8
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 5:53*pm, Peter Scholz
wrote: Am 28.10.2010 21:53, John Cochrane wrote: As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km range, with *climb rates attached, could be a major competitive issue. *With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in competitions is being actively debated. I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn? Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol, involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous. Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we don't have to rethink this all from scratch! John Cochrane In the (regional) competitions that I attended, there was no requirement of Flarm stealth mode, and almost all pilots had their Flarm configured in open mode. So everyone was in fact free to hide himself from others at the cost of not receiving tactical informations himself. I have no knowledge of a competition here in Germany where the rules required stealth mode, but there may have been such competitions that I'm not aware of. Others might want to jump in here. I have the butterfly display installed in my glider, and I personally found it quite useful to get the information if a glider circling 3km in front of me actually had a strong or weak lift, or to get the info that in 10km distance there was a lift that I could reach straight on, without having seen the glider that send out the signal. In competitions this info might be (relatively) less valuable, because one (at least me) always tends to be in the proximity of a few other competitors, so normally the Flarm tactical information is only used to confirm my decision made on 'gut feeling'. It is much more valuale on normal X/C flights, where I often get information about thermals 10-15km ahead. This quite often lead to decisions that I probably wouldn't have made without that information. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I had Flarm connected to ClearNav during 2010 WGC it worked perfect, most 18 meter class pilots didn't have stealth mode, climb rate of gliders was useless. The most important part was that I could see on the screen gliders behind me and in my blind spots in addition to warning about collision. It was eye opener how many gliders I didn't see till Flarm warning. Flying in thermal with 50+ gliders was no problem, no excessive warnings, just as needed. Jerzy XG |
#9
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 6:51*pm, Jerzy wrote:
On Oct 28, 5:53*pm, Peter Scholz wrote: Am 28.10.2010 21:53, John Cochrane wrote: As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km range, with *climb rates attached, could be a major competitive issue. *With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in competitions is being actively debated. I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn? Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol, involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous. Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we don't have to rethink this all from scratch! John Cochrane In the (regional) competitions that I attended, there was no requirement of Flarm stealth mode, and almost all pilots had their Flarm configured in open mode. So everyone was in fact free to hide himself from others at the cost of not receiving tactical informations himself. I have no knowledge of a competition here in Germany where the rules required stealth mode, but there may have been such competitions that I'm not aware of. Others might want to jump in here. I have the butterfly display installed in my glider, and I personally found it quite useful to get the information if a glider circling 3km in front of me actually had a strong or weak lift, or to get the info that in 10km distance there was a lift that I could reach straight on, without having seen the glider that send out the signal. In competitions this info might be (relatively) less valuable, because one (at least me) always tends to be in the proximity of a few other competitors, so normally the Flarm tactical information is only used to confirm my decision made on 'gut feeling'. It is much more valuale on normal X/C flights, where I often get information about thermals 10-15km ahead. This quite often lead to decisions that I probably wouldn't have made without that information. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I had Flarm connected to ClearNav during 2010 WGC it worked perfect, most 18 meter class pilots didn't have stealth mode, climb rate of gliders *was useless. The most important part was that I could see on the screen gliders behind me and in my blind spots in addition to warning about collision. It was eye opener how many gliders I didn't see till Flarm warning. Flying in thermal with 50+ gliders was no problem, no excessive warnings, just as needed. Jerzy XG Thanks Jerzy - Can you tell us if you had "competition mode" set ? Best Regards, Dave "YO electric" |
#10
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 28, 6:54*pm, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Oct 28, 6:51*pm, Jerzy wrote: On Oct 28, 5:53*pm, Peter Scholz wrote: Am 28.10.2010 21:53, John Cochrane wrote: As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km range, with *climb rates attached, could be a major competitive issue. *With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in competitions is being actively debated. I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn? Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol, involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous. Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we don't have to rethink this all from scratch! John Cochrane In the (regional) competitions that I attended, there was no requirement of Flarm stealth mode, and almost all pilots had their Flarm configured in open mode. So everyone was in fact free to hide himself from others at the cost of not receiving tactical informations himself. I have no knowledge of a competition here in Germany where the rules required stealth mode, but there may have been such competitions that I'm not aware of. Others might want to jump in here. I have the butterfly display installed in my glider, and I personally found it quite useful to get the information if a glider circling 3km in front of me actually had a strong or weak lift, or to get the info that in 10km distance there was a lift that I could reach straight on, without having seen the glider that send out the signal. In competitions this info might be (relatively) less valuable, because one (at least me) always tends to be in the proximity of a few other competitors, so normally the Flarm tactical information is only used to confirm my decision made on 'gut feeling'. It is much more valuale on normal X/C flights, where I often get information about thermals 10-15km ahead. This quite often lead to decisions that I probably wouldn't have made without that information.. -- Peter Scholz ASW24 JE- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I had Flarm connected to ClearNav during 2010 WGC it worked perfect, most 18 meter class pilots didn't have stealth mode, climb rate of gliders *was useless. The most important part was that I could see on the screen gliders behind me and in my blind spots in addition to warning about collision. It was eye opener how many gliders I didn't see till Flarm warning. Flying in thermal with 50+ gliders was no problem, no excessive warnings, just as needed. Jerzy XG Thanks Jerzy - Can you tell us if you had "competition mode" set ? Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I didn't set competition mode Jerzy |
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