Lowest Cost GPS IFR system?

So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks like a compact,
neat package for a simple system.

Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and ideas. As some of you
suspected, I'm not IFR trained. I do practice under the hood several times
a year in the event of an inadvertant IMC incursion. I don't know if I will
get my IFR or not since I fly for the fun of exploring and observing, and
there isn't much to see in the middle of a cloud. On the other hand, the
skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and on the mornings
when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly through the fog to
get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and taking off before the fog
forms.

Again, thanks for your inputs.
tom pettit


"clipclip" wrote in message
...

tom pettit Wrote:
So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much
more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based
stuff was
available.
tom

-------------------------

you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the
garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device.
be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with
all the required hardware and config though.

as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on
a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a
notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and
just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the
FAF.

another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS
at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message
of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military
exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal.
that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit
looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before
we sailed past where we were going...

:-)

francois


--
clipclip

"tom pettit" tompetatpeakdotorg wrote:

So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks like a compact,
neat package for a simple system.

Why can't you train or do a checkride? I have a Garmin GNS 430. Did
all my IFR training and will take the checkride with it. absolutely
no other comm or nav avionics installed.

Ron Lee

Here is another one I wanted to mention: AC 90-94.

"Guidelines for Using GPS Equipment for IFR En Route &
Terminal Operations & for Nonprecision Instrument Approaches
(12/14/94) (AFS-820)"

You can find it here, if you're an AOPA member:

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/ac/ac90-94.pdf

On 11/18/2005 4:41 PM, Mark Hansen wrote:

On 11/18/2005 3:43 PM, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:
I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a
single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified
unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the
FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about
this stuff yet.
thanks,
tom

Well, start with FAR 91.205. Specifically, 91.205 (d), and
91.205 (d) (2), where it state:

"...navigational equipment appropriate to the ground
facilities to be used".

Then, have a look at the AIM, in the section on Navigational Aids (section
1), specifically, 1-1-19 (d) (1), which talks about Authorization to conduct
any GPS operation under IFR, and later it talks about the requirements
for alternate navigation equipment.


Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a
IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin
GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs
to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway.

There are some exceptions, but this should get you thinking in the
right direction. I would expect that the GPS systems that can be
used without any other nav equipment on board would be more expensive
than a TSO-129 system + standard nav gear anyway.

I hope this helps,


"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...
On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:

I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
IFR flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
just hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit

Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something
rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for
the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation.

I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR
capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for
IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on
board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight.

Does any of this apply to you?

If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA






--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On 11/19/2005 8:39 AM, tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:

So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks like a compact,
neat package for a simple system.

Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and ideas. As some of you
suspected, I'm not IFR trained. I do practice under the hood several times
a year in the event of an inadvertant IMC incursion. I don't know if I will
get my IFR or not since I fly for the fun of exploring and observing, and
there isn't much to see in the middle of a cloud. On the other hand, the
skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and on the mornings
when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly through the fog to
get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and taking off before the fog
forms.

If you're talking about fog, as in clouds that go all the way to the
surface...

As an instrument rated part 91 operator, it would technically be legal
for you to take off in zero visibility, but consider what you would do
if you were forced back to the ground (such as a power failure, or
unhappy passenger, etc.) - how would you land?

Each pilot has to decide for him/herself where their personal minimums
are. Taking off in zero visibility is below mine ;-)

You'll cover these and other issue during your training.



Again, thanks for your inputs.
tom pettit


"clipclip" wrote in message
...

tom pettit Wrote:
So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much
more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based
stuff was
available.
tom

-------------------------

you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the
garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device.
be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with
all the required hardware and config though.

as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on
a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a
notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and
just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the
FAF.

another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS
at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message
of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military
exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal.
that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit
looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before
we sailed past where we were going...

:-)

francois


--
clipclip




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

No, a 430 would meet your requrements too.

Mike
MU-2


"tom pettit peak org" tompetatdot wrote in message
news42dndElh4vSyOLenZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...
So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K.
Even with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor
take the checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a
conventional system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks
like a compact, neat package for a simple system.

Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and ideas. As some of you
suspected, I'm not IFR trained. I do practice under the hood several
times a year in the event of an inadvertant IMC incursion. I don't know
if I will get my IFR or not since I fly for the fun of exploring and
observing, and there isn't much to see in the middle of a cloud. On the
other hand, the skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and
on the mornings when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly
through the fog to get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and
taking off before the fog forms.

Again, thanks for your inputs.
tom pettit


"clipclip" wrote in message
...

tom pettit Wrote:
So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much
more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based
stuff was
available.
tom

-------------------------

you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the
garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device.
be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with
all the required hardware and config though.

as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on
a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a
notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and
just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the
FAF.

another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS
at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message
of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military
exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal.
that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit
looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before
we sailed past where we were going...

:-)

francois


--
clipclip

tom pettit tompetatpeak wrote:
So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
system would be needed, too.

The GNS480 and also the 430 and 530 and probably others have integrated
ground-based navigation, so you can do an ILS for example with just the one box.
You can do both precision and non-precision approaches with just one box. I
think that's all you need for training and certification, leaving aside the
question of whether you want redundancy.

On the other hand, the
skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and on the mornings
when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly through the fog to
get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and taking off before the fog
forms.

You have the right idea. I predict you'll be going for the rating before long.
You won't be sorry.

I put a used GX50 IFR certified in my 172 for the following cost:

Used GX50 with antenna at OSH 2 years back $1800
New Mid-Continent CDI with annuciators: $795
New Sandia Mode C encoder with serializer $350
Installation labor, sign-off, flight test $1350
Factory repair of used GX50 $450

Total: $4745 (plus misc shipping charges)


"tom pettit peak org" tompetatdot wrote in message
...
I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
IFR flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
just hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit