Allied Air launched rockets of ww2

"Brian Colwell" wrote in message
news:IJ8vc.640777$oR5.204800@pd7tw3no...


Of course the UK had ground based rocket AA defense systems. Not sure how
effective they were ! but to see and hear them was pretty impressive :-))


Which was their major value as I recall. They were pretty much
phased out in 1941 which is a pretty good indicator.

The Wire-Barrage Rocket Projectile was also fitted to
naval vessels in the early part of the war. Most were
removed when it was realised that not only were they
ineffective but the poor stability of the projectiles and
warheads made them a hazard to the ships on which
they were mounted.

Keith




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"John Mullen" wrote in message ...
"Taki Kogoma" wrote in message
...
On 1 Jun 2004 15:21:56 +0100, (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
allegedly declared to rec.aviation.military...
In article ,
Prowlus wrote:
Does anyone know why the allies didn't consider using their air
lauched rockets as air-to-air weapons during the war when the jets
started appearing? I thought it would have been a good idea to ward
off any attack from ME-262s or me-163s which were too fast to attack
with guns.

The VVS was using air-air rockets against the Japanese over Manchuria
in 1938 or so. They made quite extensive use of them in the early
part of the war against Germany (before giving them up as ineffective,
iSTR).

Compared with the allies (well, the Russians) the germans were very slow
in trying air-to-air rockets.

And the nature of the intended targets (relatively large and slow
bomber formations rather than small, fast, and nimble fighters, jabos,
etc.)
made the german AA rocket a viable option at that point in the war.

The Luftwaffe did of course use AA rockets against US and UK bombers in
thelatter stages of the war. The Me-262 was certainly equipped to fire them.

John

They, the 55mm R4M were excedingly effective. 1 in 24 hit and
destroyed its target and as an Me 262 carried 24 of them they had a
success rate of almost 100% when using this weapon.

The Me 262 had a EZ 42 computing gyro gun sight, and some I believe
received the FuG 244 ranging radar that could via the "Elfe" computer
inject the firing solution into the gun sight for the cannon and I
believe unguided R4M 55mm
misiles as well though I'm not sure if the FuG 244/Elfe combo was ever
used in combat.

Clearly a stream of such missiles if competently aimed would be
effective against large bombers. I suspect post war versions of such
missiles could have been fitted with proximity fuses.

They Germans also had a larger missile under developement that had a
shaped charge that scattered a forward focused fragmentation charge
that was activated by a timer fuse set be Elfe.

The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.

They, the 55mm R4M were excedingly effective. 1 in 24 hit and
destroyed its target and as an Me 262 carried 24 of them they had a
success rate of almost 100% when using this weapon.

Not quite. There was no onboard ranging system so manually computing 800 yards
was a tough thing to do with closure speeds anywhere from 300-500 MPH. I have
interviewed several JG 7 pilots and two JV 44 guys - although they were MIGHTY
happy with the R4M, it was no magic bullet. Remember that very very few Me
262s even had the rails for rockets.

The Me 262 had a EZ 42 computing gyro gun sight,

About 20% of them did, and that includes some of the KG 51 bomber variants.
Most Me 262 pilots never saw an EZ 42; some that did insisted the gyro be
locked as it was too radical a departure from their earlier method of gunnery.

and some I believe
received the FuG 244 ranging radar that could via the "Elfe" computer
inject the firing solution into the gun sight for the cannon and I
believe unguided R4M 55mm
misiles as well though I'm not sure if the FuG 244/Elfe combo was ever
used in combat.

It was not.

Clearly a stream of such missiles if competently aimed would be
effective against large bombers. I suspect post war versions of such
missiles could have been fitted with proximity fuses.

The R4M was intended as a cheap shotgun and was about as simple as a rocket
could be. Fitting it with prox fuses would have greatly improved it.

They Germans also had a larger missile under developement that had a
shaped charge that scattered a forward focused fragmentation charge
that was activated by a timer fuse set be Elfe.

The X-4 can be properly seen as the grandfather of modern Air to Air missiles.
As usual, the LW waited too long...

The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.

That was almost immediately after they were placed into service. LW pilots
*detested* the Wgr 21s as overweight, parabolic albatrosses hanging from their
necks. One Gruppenkommandeur was ordered to evaluate these rockets in combat -
he refused to order anyone else in his unit to use them after it was clear that
the added weight would make the shooting platform a sitting duck. Major Klaus
Haberlen then flew the mission himself, and nearly died in the failed attempt
to bring down a bomber with them. Filing his report with OKdLW, the GruppeKdr
failed to realize that the Wgr 21 was *supposed* to work; Goering found out
that Haberlen "dissed" the weapon system and had him sacked on the spot, then
ordered his replacement to carry on with the near-suicidal missions. Popular,
the Wgr 21 was not.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

In article , Keith Willshaw keithnospam@kwillshaw
..demon.co.uk writes

"Brian Colwell" wrote in message
news:IJ8vc.640777$oR5.204800@pd7tw3no...


Of course the UK had ground based rocket AA defense systems. Not sure how
effective they were ! but to see and hear them was pretty impressive :-))


Which was their major value as I recall. They were pretty much
phased out in 1941 which is a pretty good indicator.

The Wire-Barrage Rocket Projectile was also fitted to
naval vessels in the early part of the war. Most were
removed when it was realised that not only were they
ineffective but the poor stability of the projectiles and
warheads made them a hazard to the ships on which
they were mounted.

Keith


To quote the late, great, Roger Bacon...

'The first generation of air-to-air missiles could not hit anything,
apart from, occasionally, the launching aircraft.

The second generation of air-to-air missiles could hit the target, but
only with the targets extreme co-operation.

The third generation of air-to-air missiles - whoosh, zap, aarrgh!'

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...



They, the 55mm R4M were excedingly effective. 1 in 24 hit and
destroyed its target and as an Me 262 carried 24 of them they had a
success rate of almost 100% when using this weapon.

Not quite. There was no onboard ranging system so manually computing 800
yards
was a tough thing to do with closure speeds anywhere from 300-500 MPH. I have
interviewed several JG 7 pilots and two JV 44 guys - although they were MIGHTY
happy with the R4M, it was no magic bullet. Remember that very very few Me
262s even had the rails for rockets.

The Me 262 had a EZ 42 computing gyro gun sight,

About 20% of them did, and that includes some of the KG 51 bomber variants.
Most Me 262 pilots never saw an EZ 42; some that did insisted the gyro be
locked as it was too radical a departure from their earlier method of gunnery.

A lack of training opportunity? I recall an interview with Galland.
He said that what made the Mustang effective was its Gyro sight. They
had more attack options than the Luftwaffe pilots and he regarded this
as decisive. Presumably the experten were ambush predators and this
allowed for more effective ambushes.



and some I believe
received the FuG 244 ranging radar that could via the "Elfe" computer
inject the firing solution into the gun sight for the cannon and I
believe unguided R4M 55mm
misiles as well though I'm not sure if the FuG 244/Elfe combo was ever
used in combat.

It was not.

Clearly a stream of such missiles if competently aimed would be
effective against large bombers. I suspect post war versions of such
missiles could have been fitted with proximity fuses.

The R4M was intended as a cheap shotgun and was about as simple as a rocket
could be. Fitting it with prox fuses would have greatly improved it.

They Germans also had a larger missile under developement that had a
shaped charge that scattered a forward focused fragmentation charge
that was activated by a timer fuse set be Elfe.

The X-4 can be properly seen as the grandfather of modern Air to Air
missiles. As usual, the LW waited too long...


I refer to another missile the R100 BS. Developed by Rheinmetall
Borsig. It was a 100mm x 67 inch (thats the mkixed data I have) that
was to be fired by the oberon radar ranging system. It had a timed
proximity fuse with 460 pellets that were blasted in a forward cone.
They weighed 125kg and were fired from AG 140 racks. Intended for the
Ar 234 with the Ez 42 gun sight and perhaps other aircraft.

The Germans should have been able to develop such a modest sized
missile with a radar proximity fuse. It was not so oversized and the
acceleration was not so excessive as to present insupperable shock
hardening problems. It seems easier than all those complicated
guidence systems for attacking a lumbering bomber flying formation.


The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.


The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.

That was almost immediately after they were placed into service.

And it was P38s Lightning not P51 Mustangs that saved the bombers from
heavily armed rocket had heavy caliber armed German fighters that were
unopposed. Even Stukas were having a go at the B17s.


LW pilots
*detested* the Wgr 21s as overweight, parabolic albatrosses hanging from their
necks. One Gruppenkommandeur was ordered to evaluate these rockets
in combat -
he refused to order anyone else in his unit to use them after it was
clear that
the added weight would make the shooting platform a sitting duck. Major Klaus
Haberlen then flew the mission himself, and nearly died in the failed attempt
to bring down a bomber with them. Filing his report with OKdLW, the GruppeKdr
failed to realize that the Wgr 21 was *supposed* to work; Goering found out
that Haberlen "dissed" the weapon system and had him sacked on the spot, then
ordered his replacement to carry on with the near-suicidal missions. Popular,
the Wgr 21 was not.

Intersting story; the Wgr 21 however was unusual in having been
developed by the troops themselves. Clearly to heavy.


v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

Most Me 262 pilots never saw an EZ 42; some that did insisted the gyro be
locked as it was too radical a departure from their earlier method of
gunnery.

A lack of training opportunity? I recall an interview with Galland.
He said that what made the Mustang effective was its Gyro sight. They
had more attack options than the Luftwaffe pilots and he regarded this
as decisive. Presumably the experten were ambush predators and this
allowed for more effective ambushes.

Oddly, it seemed the other way - nachwuchs adapted to the EZ rather quickly -
it was the old hands that seemed to feel the gyro was unnecessary and at times
even confusing. I thought it was funny the way they introduced the EZ 42 into
Me 262 service: one day, the jet bomber pilots of KG 51 at Neuberg heard an
old familiar sound - over the trees comes a tiny Bü 181. After it lands, the
pilots are assembled and given a class on the new gunsite (ooohs and aaahs all
around), then the instructor, a non-Luftwaffe pilot, took them out one by one
in the Bücker, with this incongruous gunsite set in the dash. After a couple
days teaching the pilots, the first EZ 42s were mounted in their Me 262 Jabos,
leaving a lot of these former Ju 88 bomber pilots scratching their heads! It
was very common within the Gruppe to 'play' with it for a while, then lock it
down to act as a normal Revi gunsite. Old habits die hard, I guess!


They Germans also had a larger missile under developement that had a
shaped charge that scattered a forward focused fragmentation charge
that was activated by a timer fuse set be Elfe.

The X-4 can be properly seen as the grandfather of modern Air to Air
missiles. As usual, the LW waited too long...
I refer to another missile the R100 BS.

I about fell off my chair when I saw one of these for sale on Ebay three years
ago. Same guy sold a Föhn, and later and R4M. The Föhn sold for $22 - I just
slapped my head over missing that one. The R4M and R100 went for astronomical
prices; I assumed they came out of some museum somewhere.

Developed by Rheinmetall
Borsig. It was a 100mm x 67 inch (thats the mkixed data I have) that
was to be fired by the oberon radar ranging system. It had a timed
proximity fuse with 460 pellets that were blasted in a forward cone.
They weighed 125kg and were fired from AG 140 racks. Intended for the
Ar 234 with the Ez 42 gun sight and perhaps other aircraft.

That Oberon was a mess - it completely filled the nose (i.e., no guns!) of the
Me 262 it was fitted to - not much good in that, but then it was only a
prototype.

The Germans should have been able to develop such a modest sized
missile with a radar proximity fuse.

Prolly so, but prox fuses were never given the priority they should have had -
it would have made the difference in the night war against the teiffliegers.

It was not so oversized and the
acceleration was not so excessive as to present insupperable shock
hardening problems. It seems easier than all those complicated
guidence systems for attacking a lumbering bomber flying formation.

I think the optical cell-fired rockets were a good idea too. Fly under a
bomber and your fighter takes its own shot, leaving you to concentrate on those
little black dots diving from above.

The timer activated 21cm Wgr 21 rockets that was launched in pairs
from FW190s and Me109s were very effective untill escorts began
harrasing the heavily laden aircraft.

That was almost immediately after they were placed into service.

And it was P38s Lightning not P51 Mustangs that saved the bombers from
heavily armed rocket had heavy caliber armed German fighters that were
unopposed. Even Stukas were having a go at the B17s.

Must have been interesting to watch those pitiful old creatures trying to reach
20K!


Popular,
the Wgr 21 was not.

Intersting story; the Wgr 21 however was unusual in having been
developed by the troops themselves. Clearly to heavy.


In the right hands - say, a Knoke or Glunz-type pilot, the Wgr 21 was an
effective and terrifying tool, but most LW pilots felt the tubes and rockets
were "going to get us killed!"

v/r
Gordon

The third generation of air-to-air missiles - whoosh, zap, aarrgh!'

Well said. PK edged much closer to 1.0

G

"Krztalizer" == Krztalizer writes:

The Germans should have been able to develop such a modest
sized missile with a radar proximity fuse.

Krztalizer Prolly so, but prox fuses were never given the
Krztalizer priority they should have had - it would have made the
Krztalizer difference in the night war against the teiffliegers.

You mean 'Tiefflieger'? I.e. low level strafers.... at night?
Could you elaborate? Obviously I missed some reading here, but are
you referring to Mosquito raids or what, maybe intruders?

Thanks,
--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

Krztalizer difference in the night war against the teiffliegers.

You mean 'Tiefflieger'?

Yep - I manage to mangle the spelling every time, and its in many of the
documents I have to translate.

I.e. low level strafers.... at night?

Usually used that way, but also used to describe British Main Force raiders.

Could you elaborate? Obviously I missed some reading here, but are
you referring to Mosquito raids or what, maybe intruders?

I think prox fuses could well have done the job to counter the Mosquito - if it
worked against V-1s, I can't see them having a problem with Mossies sent to
Berlin on routes so routinely used that they were known to air defense forces
as railway "tracks". By the same token, Sterlings lumbering along in the dark
at 14,000' wouldn't be much of a challenge to an AA battery with proximity
fuses. Considering the prewar Oslo letter contained an advanced proximity
fuse, it appears the wartime German leadership never made it the priority it
should have been.

v/r
Gordon