Departing IFR at SMO w/ Tower Closed

Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

Thanks,
Dan

The typical void time clearance for a Class E airport out in the toolies is
"enter controlled airspace on such-and-such heading". How you get there is
up to you.

I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E or
what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?

Anyway, SMO is a special situation, being where it is, and I suspect the
void time clearance will be very specific from the ground up. If nothing
were said, common sense would dictate that the DP be flown. So the
hierarchy would be, whatever was said, or if nothing said, the DP.
"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

Thanks,
Dan

Dan Thompson wrote:



I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E or
what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?

Anyway, SMO is a special situation, being where it is, and I suspect the
void time clearance will be very specific from the ground up. If nothing
were said, common sense would dictate that the DP be flown. So the
hierarchy would be, whatever was said, or if nothing said, the DP.
"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although
I have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a
heading to maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would
supercede the ODP.

Tim wrote:
Dan Thompson wrote:

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although
I have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a
heading to maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would
supercede the ODP.

If you actually get a vector, ATC is taking responsibility for obstacle/terrain
clearance. Otherwise, the ODP will keep you out of the dirt. I don't think an
initial instruction like "enter controlled airspace on heading X" qualifies as a
vector for that purpose.

If I thought I couldn't maintain obstacle/terrain clearance visually, and if the
departure clearance conflicted with the ODP, I think I'd have to negotiate a
different clearance.

Dave

There is no "rule," Dan. Some tower-controlled airports revert to Class E,
some to Class G. It's in the A/FD, listed under Airspace.

Bob Gardner

"Dan Thompson" wrote in message
om...
The typical void time clearance for a Class E airport out in the toolies
is "enter controlled airspace on such-and-such heading". How you get
there is up to you.

I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E
or what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?

Anyway, SMO is a special situation, being where it is, and I suspect the
void time clearance will be very specific from the ground up. If nothing
were said, common sense would dictate that the DP be flown. So the
hierarchy would be, whatever was said, or if nothing said, the DP.
"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

Thanks,
Dan

On 6 Nov 2005 21:17:24 -0800, "Dan" wrote:

Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

I have no experience with SMO, but lots of experience departing IFR from
uncontrolled fields.

In most instances, ATC will NOT specify a DP. Executing the DP procedure,
at least for Part 91 flights, is pilot option. There is no requirement to
notify ATC.

There should be no conflict with the AIM recommendations:
-----------------------
AIM 5-2-6 ODPs (Obstacle Departure Procedures) are recommended for
obstruction clearance and may be flown *without* ATC clearance unless an
alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically
assigned by ATC.
-------------------

If there appears to be a conflict with the AIM recommendations, then you
should clarify that with ATC prior to departure.

It's a good idea to look at a sectional and acquaint yourself with the
obstacles just in case ATC makes an error in your clearance, especially for
a night IFR departure.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

In most instances, ATC will NOT specify a DP. Executing the DP procedure,
at least for Part 91 flights, is pilot option. There is no requirement to
notify ATC.

SMO lies in critical airspace. There is no way SoCal is going to launch
an IFR departure without very specific instructions.

It is so critical that a few years ago a Kingair elected to
circle-to-land Runway 3 after the tower was closed and they ended up
with a loss of separation with an air carrier departure out of LAX that
had been turned northwest over the ocean but too close to SMO.

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 06:47:09 -0800, Tim wrote:



In most instances, ATC will NOT specify a DP. Executing the DP procedure,
at least for Part 91 flights, is pilot option. There is no requirement to
notify ATC.

SMO lies in critical airspace. There is no way SoCal is going to launch
an IFR departure without very specific instructions.



You've mentioned this a few times.

What are those specific instructions when departing IFR from SMO with the
tower closed?

That was one of the questions the OP posed.

If the TRACON is issuing radar vectors off the ground, then, as I quoted
from the AIM, that would supersede any ODP. But ATC is then responsible
for obstacle clearance, of course.


It is so critical that a few years ago a Kingair elected to
circle-to-land Runway 3 after the tower was closed and they ended up
with a loss of separation with an air carrier departure out of LAX that
had been turned northwest over the ocean but too close to SMO.

What was the KingAir's clearance?

Whether it was a problem (i.e. who buys the 'deal') for the KingAir pilot
would depend on his specific clearance.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
If the TRACON is issuing radar vectors off the ground, then, as I quoted
from the AIM, that would supersede any ODP. But ATC is then responsible
for obstacle clearance, of course.

How can they issue radar vectors before you're in radar contact?

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 06:47:09 -0800, Tim wrote:


In most instances, ATC will NOT specify a DP. Executing the DP procedure,
at least for Part 91 flights, is pilot option. There is no requirement to
notify ATC.


SMO lies in critical airspace. There is no way SoCal is going to launch
an IFR departure without very specific instructions.




You've mentioned this a few times.

What are those specific instructions when departing IFR from SMO with the
tower closed?

I don't know. I know the airspace constraints of that location but, as
I said in a previous post, I have not flown IFR out of KSMO.

That was one of the questions the OP posed.

I know. And, he probably would get better information by giving SoCal
TRACON a call.


If the TRACON is issuing radar vectors off the ground, then, as I quoted
from the AIM, that would supersede any ODP. But ATC is then responsible
for obstacle clearance, of course.

Yes, but...there are many worse locations where they vector below the
MVA and do not, in fact, assure any obstacle clearance below MVA. It is
a very obscure area.


It is so critical that a few years ago a Kingair elected to
circle-to-land Runway 3 after the tower was closed and they ended up
with a loss of separation with an air carrier departure out of LAX that
had been turned northwest over the ocean but too close to SMO.


What was the KingAir's clearance?

Don't recall the specifics other than the tower was closed and ATC
bought the "deal," but in the press release the FAA claimed that 3 miles
or 1,000 was merely a guideline.