Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

A Lieberma wrote:



My question is where were you in relationship to the airport? Were you
under an approach or departure path? Where you near an initial approach
fix for IFR traffic?

Irrelavant. He was below the class C which puts him well away from
traffic at those points.

wrote:

He *didn't* acknowledge my request to terminate, in fact he essentially
denied my request by telling me he wanted me to stay with him. Had I changed to
1200 and ignored his radio calls, would I be violating anything?

No.

wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the
vertical limits.

I'm not actually sure that teh controllers know the specific boundaries
of the airspace. When you get vectored around its usually because they
have arrivals/departures, not because of the airspace.

-Robert

On 10/27/06 09:54, wrote:
: Class C services are provided within the Class C airspace itself and also
: within the outer area associated with it. If you're not happy with the
: service while in the outer area you are free to terminate them at any time
: and proceed on your merry way, as long as you remain outside Class C
: airspace.

That's the most interesting thing about my experience. I was halfway
expecting them to vector me, and if I figured it was inappropriate I was going to
terminate. He *didn't* acknowledge my request to terminate, in fact he essentially
denied my request by telling me he wanted me to stay with him. Had I changed to
1200 and ignored his radio calls, would I be violating anything? That's sorta why
I'm looking for the regs on "VFR flight following."

Actually, the controller "requested" that you stay with him. As you were not
within his C airspace, you were under no obligation, and could have just said
no.


-Cory





--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the
vertical limits.

If you really meant to ask "where are the regs?" I don't think you'll
find anything specifically about flight following in the regulations.
Look for "VFR advisories" in the AIM. That's the official name for what
we informally call flight-following.

I think Steven said it best (paraphrasing): don't ask, just tell them
you're terminating radar services.

Dave

Dave Butler wrote:
: If you really meant to ask "where are the regs?" I don't think you'll
: find anything specifically about flight following in the regulations.
: Look for "VFR advisories" in the AIM. That's the official name for what
: we informally call flight-following.

: I think Steven said it best (paraphrasing): don't ask, just tell them
: you're terminating radar services.

: Dave

Pretty much what I was doing (I thought). I think that that point he realized
that I was *trying* to be a nice guy by talking to him and acknowledging altitude,
etc, but yet I wasn't willing to accept vectors.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

: I'm not actually sure that teh controllers know the specific boundaries
: of the airspace. When you get vectored around its usually because they
: have arrivals/departures, not because of the airspace.

I sure hope that's not the case. Normal (IFR) arrivals/departures should stay
within the boundaries of the controlled airspace... that's why they're there.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

Pretty much what I was doing (I thought). I think that that point he
realized
that I was *trying* to be a nice guy by talking to him and acknowledging
altitude,
etc, but yet I wasn't willing to accept vectors.


Class C services include separation between IFR and VFR aircraft, they are
provided to all aircraft within Class C airspace, and to all participating
aircraft within the outer area. When you contacted approach you became a
participating aircraft. If vectors are deemed necessary to provide
separation you will receive vectors. If you're not willing to accept them
don't be a participating aircraft.

: Class C services include separation between IFR and VFR aircraft, they are
: provided to all aircraft within Class C airspace, and to all participating
: aircraft within the outer area. When you contacted approach you became a
: participating aircraft. If vectors are deemed necessary to provide
: separation you will receive vectors. If you're not willing to accept them
: don't be a participating aircraft.

Ah... there's the rub though. I was not, nor did I plan to actually enter the
Class C. I am certainly not advocating disregarding ATC requests when in the
controlled airspace. I'm arguing against the seemingly mandatory re-routing of VFR
traffic completely around the lateral boundaries of a Class C should the VFR traffic
want to cooperate with ATC by communicating with them.

I suspect you have it pretty much summarized though. Sad that the only
"solution" to this is just squawk 1200 and buzz through fat, dumb, and happy.

-Cory



--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...
: Class C services include separation between IFR and VFR aircraft, they
are
: provided to all aircraft within Class C airspace, and to all
participating
: aircraft within the outer area. When you contacted approach you became
a
: participating aircraft. If vectors are deemed necessary to provide
: separation you will receive vectors. If you're not willing to accept
them
: don't be a participating aircraft.

Ah... there's the rub though. I was not, nor did I plan to
actually enter the
Class C. I am certainly not advocating disregarding ATC requests when in
the
controlled airspace. I'm arguing against the seemingly mandatory
re-routing of VFR
traffic completely around the lateral boundaries of a Class C should the
VFR traffic
want to cooperate with ATC by communicating with them.

I suspect you have it pretty much summarized though. Sad that the
only
"solution" to this is just squawk 1200 and buzz through fat, dumb, and
happy.


I don't think you understand. Class C services are provided to all
aircraft within the Class C airspace itself, and to all participating
aircraft in the outer area associated with it. The outer area is not marked
on the chart, it is normally the area within a twenty mile radius of the
Class C primary airport and extends from the lower limits of radar/radio
coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace
excluding the Class C charted area.