Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
.net...

I don't think you understand. Class C services are provided to all
aircraft within the Class C airspace itself, and to all participating
aircraft in the outer area associated with it. The outer area is not
marked on the chart, it is normally the area within a twenty mile radius
of the Class C primary airport and extends from the lower limits of
radar/radio coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated
airspace excluding the Class C charted area.

OK, so how does this work? Two years ago, enroute OSH for the fly-in, I
approach Madison with flight following. I'm given vectors, despite the fact
I'm at 11,500 feet.

Just how far up does their airspace extend?

I'm glad this came up. I've wondered about that (off and on) ever since it
happened.

"Dick Meade" wrote in message
...

OK, so how does this work? Two years ago, enroute OSH for the fly-in, I
approach Madison with flight following. I'm given vectors, despite the
fact I'm at 11,500 feet.

Just how far up does their airspace extend?


The last I heard Madison approach airspace went up to 10,000, it's possible
it's been moved up to 13,000 to be consistent with Milwaukee approach which
it abuts. If you were at 11,500 and talking to Madison approach that would
seem to be the case.

: I don't think you understand. Class C services are provided to all
: aircraft within the Class C airspace itself, and to all participating
: aircraft in the outer area associated with it. The outer area is not marked
: on the chart, it is normally the area within a twenty mile radius of the
: Class C primary airport and extends from the lower limits of radar/radio
: coverage up to the ceiling of the approach control's delegated airspace
: excluding the Class C charted area.

All right... so I'll admit that I was "participating" by calling them up and
accepting a squawk code. I was chosing NOT to participate when I requested
termination of radar services.... but he did not acknowledge that request. I would
have simply gone 1200, but in the back of my mind, I remember reading, "Transponders
should be set to 1200, unless ATC tells otherwise." I guess most pilots do what
they're told by ATC, and in most cases should do exactly that.

I remember once coming back from Florida over Charlotte, SC in a friend's
PA-24-250. We'd been slow-baking at 10,500 for about 3 hours without O2, so we were
probably both a bit hypoxic. We were going to go right over the top (top is at
10.5)... they "refused," saying we could go to 12500 if we wanted. Unable, so we were
vectored 20 miles out of our way. No I know the "correct" way to hand this would be
to terminate radar services.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Newps wrote in
:

Irrelavant. He was below the class C which puts him well away from
traffic at those points.

Not quite sure I agree with this.

Looking back on his post, he was OUTSIDE class C flying straight and level.
He didn't give his altitude, but if he was 2000 feet or higher, he could
have easily been in an approach fix altitude that is located outside
charlie airspace.

Case in point around my area. Wouldn't be a good idea to fly around the
JAN VOR that is located outside KJAN charlie airspace with is an initial
approach fix at 2000 feet for incoming IFR traffic.

I'd sure want to be squawking and talking in that area! Could make for a
very bad day for the arrival and enroute traffic if one wasn't talking.

Allen

Funny you mention MKE... that's one of the Charlies that *always* does it
to me. I generally fly into Capitol (02C) just to the northeast of Waukesha coming
from Chicago. Again, I'm generally flying 1000' under their Charlie, about 2-3
miles from the inner SFC veil. *IF* I talk to them, they try to vector me to the
west to get outside the lateral boundaries. If they tried to run me over the lake,
it would be a definite "unable."

We fly in that area a lot. Coming from the Southwest, MKE will usually
not take a hand-off from Rockford Approach, which is always
aggravating.

If they DO take the hand-off (or if you're able to catch them on your
own, they usually won't vector you around if you stay to the south of
their airspace. If you head to the north (to Timmerman or Waukesha, for
example), they will vector you around as needed, but not excessively,
IMHO.

If you fly past them along the lake shore, however, they WILL try to
send you way out over the lake. I always tell them "unable", and with
one exception they have always let me stay in tight to shore. The one
exception resulted in being vectored all the way around Class C to the
west, which really sucked.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I remember once coming back from Florida over Charlotte, SC in a friend's
PA-24-250. We'd been slow-baking at 10,500 for about 3 hours without O2, so we were
probably both a bit hypoxic. We were going to go right over the top (top is at
10.5)... they "refused," saying we could go to 12500 if we wanted. Unable, so we were
vectored 20 miles out of our way. No I know the "correct" way to hand this would be
to terminate radar services.

You were over the *top* of their airspace, and they vectored you 20
miles out of the way?

I'd have told them to pound salt. Politely, of course...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 10/27/06 13:49, Jay Honeck wrote:
Funny you mention MKE... that's one of the Charlies that *always* does it
to me. I generally fly into Capitol (02C) just to the northeast of Waukesha coming
from Chicago. Again, I'm generally flying 1000' under their Charlie, about 2-3
miles from the inner SFC veil. *IF* I talk to them, they try to vector me to the
west to get outside the lateral boundaries. If they tried to run me over the lake,
it would be a definite "unable."

We fly in that area a lot. Coming from the Southwest, MKE will usually
not take a hand-off from Rockford Approach, which is always
aggravating.

If they DO take the hand-off (or if you're able to catch them on your
own, they usually won't vector you around if you stay to the south of
their airspace. If you head to the north (to Timmerman or Waukesha, for
example), they will vector you around as needed, but not excessively,
IMHO.

If you fly past them along the lake shore, however, they WILL try to
send you way out over the lake. I always tell them "unable", and with
one exception they have always let me stay in tight to shore. The one
exception resulted in being vectored all the way around Class C to the
west, which really sucked.

So was that a punishment for being unable to fly out over the lake?
.... I hope not ;-\

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On 10/27/06 13:59, Jay Honeck wrote:
I remember once coming back from Florida over Charlotte, SC in a friend's
PA-24-250. We'd been slow-baking at 10,500 for about 3 hours without O2, so we were
probably both a bit hypoxic. We were going to go right over the top (top is at
10.5)... they "refused," saying we could go to 12500 if we wanted. Unable, so we were
vectored 20 miles out of our way. No I know the "correct" way to hand this would be
to terminate radar services.

You were over the *top* of their airspace, and they vectored you 20
miles out of the way?

The way I read it, they weren't over the top, they were at the top. If they
flew over the top, they wouldn't have been at a legal VFR altitude.


I'd have told them to pound salt. Politely, of course...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

wrote in message
...

I remember once coming back from Florida over Charlotte, SC in a
friend's PA-24-250. We'd been slow-baking at 10,500 for about 3 hours
without O2, so we were probably both a bit hypoxic. We were going to go
right over the top (top is at 10.5)... they "refused," saying we could go
to
12500 if we wanted. Unable, so we were vectored 20 miles out of our way.
No I know the "correct" way to hand this would be to terminate radar
services.


The top of Charlotte approach control airspace is 10,500 MSL? That's odd,
these things tend to be at IFR altitudes. In that situation 11,000 over
Charlotte approach airspace would be virtually unusable.

On 2006-10-27, wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree
I was testing the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably
vector VFR aircraft outside

I've always wondered what the rules were. I've had PDX give me altitude
restrictions when I'm talking to them above their airspace. One day on
the way to Mt St Helens I recall being outside the lateral AND vertical
bounds of their airspace when I got an "at or below" for some crossing
traffic.

Since that's not as annoying as a vector I've never had cause to challenge
them. And they've been nice to me while inside their airspace, too.

*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I
reponded, "NXXXX would like to terminate radar services." I never
received the "radar service terminated, squawk 1200," so I inquired
as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to terminate. The
controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the

Yeah, I'm not surprised that their overriding goal is to keep an eye
on you. I wonder what was going on during that pause.

to find the official regs as far as flight following goes.

When I looked all I found was "obey ATC instructions". That's sort of
ambiguous when you are in a situation where you're not required to talk
to ATC at all, but happen to be...

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/