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#82
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In article , Corey C. Jordan
writes Inasmuch as acceleration correlates closely with climb, I don't think that the Mossie could out-accelerate any single engine Luftwaffe fighter of the time. It doesn't have to be able to out accelerate the fighter, just accelerate enough to reduce the closing speed for long enough. Somewhere (not here) I have a copy of the RAF test report on the 'fighting' abilities of the Mossie, it mentioned good acceleration, have to dig it out. As it was, most models were not especially fast when compared to the day fighters of the time. Reports I've read suggested that Mossies from the first raids flew home followed by numerous FW190s, none of which managed to close enough to get a shot in. -- John |
#83
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In article ,
"Sunny" wrote: "Corey C. Jordan" wrote in message snip They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to put enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies. individual Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to locate. But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight. That meant the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength. Without any defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered and very much chewed to pieces. Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than the B17. :-) But how far? |
#84
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On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:52:50 GMT, "Sunny" wrote:
Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than the B17. :-) Indeed, it certainly could over the longer ranges required to reach Germany. However, for missions into eastern France, the B-17 could and was rigged with under-wing racks and would drag as much as 12,000 lbs to the target. Oh yeah, the B-24 was actually the more numerous of the two and it had a considerably greater load capability (B-17s were limited by the size of the bomb bay, a throwback to the middle 1930s when loads of 2,000 lbs were considered adequate). B-17s would haul five 1,000 lbs bombs or eight 500 lb bombs on a typical mission over Germany. As an interesting comparison, Charles Lindbergh demonstrated to the Marines that they could lift three and even four 1,000 lb bombs with their F4U-1As. My regards, Widewing Widewing (C.C. Jordan) http://www.worldwar2aviation.com http://www.netaces.org http://www.hitechcreations.com |
#85
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As it was, most models were not especially fast when compared to the day fighters of the time. Still, they were the fastest bombers of the day, and the speed they possessed was more than adequate to outstrip all but their most determined pursuers. Reports I've read suggested that Mossies from the first raids flew home followed by numerous FW190s, none of which managed to close enough to get a shot in. That's true. I also have a few anecdotes from LW pilots and upper echelon types that make it clear that the Mosquito was practically untouchable. No other aircraft in the Allied arsenal caused nearly as much consternation among the Nazi leadership - a quick scan through Goebbels' diaries shows that he mentions Mosquitos by name in every single daily entry for the last two months of his life. No other type of a/c is even mentioned by name, not even once. Mosquitos. Verdammt Mosquitos. Even a success over a single Mosquito was worthy of mention. "Moskitoschriek" (Mosquito Panic) was actually a term among German nightfighter men that was used during the last months of the war to describe the physical condition caused by extended periods of sleep deprivation and knawing dread due to too many nights on operations, facing their nemesis, the RAF intruder and nightfighter Mosquitos. I have plenty of examples of this phrase being used, by NJG airmen as well as Galland, Göring, and Willi Messerschmitt. My evaluation of the Mosquito matches Galland's and Göring's opinion - that the Mosquito was the only air threat that conventional forces were simply never able to overcome. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Aircrew "Got anything on your radar, SENSO?" "Nothing but my forehead, sir." |
#86
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Consider that the Bf-109G-10 could maintain a climb rate of nearly double that of a Mosquito, you can be absolutely certain that the Mosquito would get chased down very quickly should one bleed off its speed. True of any bomber, then or now. Mossies needed to stay high and fly at fast cruise speeds to avoid interception. 418 Squadron, among several others making life hell for the German nightfighters, proved that they could operate nearly untouched over the continent, and usually at very low altitude. Getting the Mosquito slow was to get it dead. Again, true. I still shake my head in amazement when I hear the advocates of the Mossie as a strategic bomber blubber on about how the Mosquito could have replaced the American heavy bombers because they were fast enough to avoid interception. Utter rubbish. I doubt that anyone could carry that argument very far, regardless of how much the Mosquito fans would like. Hell, I love the a/c, but it was never capable of area bombing. In that regard, it was clearly incapable of replacing the B-17, Lancs or any other type of "viermot" (generic term "four motor" used to describe heavy bombers). They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to put enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies. But, unlike the heavies, the Mosquito could and did flatten pin-point strategic targets with apparent ease, without sacrificing the entire neighborhood. individual Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to locate. But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight. That is a GOOD thing, in fact the RAF depended on it. When spoof raids reached their final incarnation, they featured window-dropping Mosquitos, "Grand Tour" Mosquitos, Pathfinders, etc., including dedicated nightfighters - in short, they represented a threat that the Germans had no choice but to react. The result? German nightfighters responding to the "Mosquito raids" often found themselves facing few if any bombers, and too many Mossie nightfighters for them to handle. As for early detection of Mosquitos, remember the time frame - by 1944, jamming, intrusion and interference of several types were making it nearly impossible for the GAF to paint an accurate picture of raids assembling over England - the main reason they could react to heavy bombers was their bloody slow speed in getting it together and transiting to their target. Mosquitos didn't require a tight defensive formation and could have easily swamped German defenses by doing it all 'their way' - go over at "Mosquito height" (30K) and approach the target from several directions. That meant the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength. That was tried, with limited success. 10./JG 300 among several other units tasked with exactly this duty. They had greater success than more normal squadrons, but it was little more than a drop in the bucket. Without any defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered and very much chewed to pieces. Why wouldn't this force operate at night and in company with FB or NF Mosquitos? The only time a force of Mosquitos was hit hard enough to justify this assertion was during Operation Clarion, when essentially every strong point of this aircraft was ignored and it was sent over the continent in droves, in daylight, against fully alerted defenses - along with over 7,000 other Allied a/c. Not surprisingly, their loss rate for that date was quite costly - on the order of 1/5th of the other Allied participants. v/r Gordon ====(A+C==== USN SAR Aircrew "Got anything on your radar, SENSO?" "Nothing but my forehead, sir." |
#87
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Let's do some numbers. The B--17 carried a 5,000 lb. bomb load on most of its mssions. The B-26 carried a 4,000 bomb load on most of its mssions. So did most of the Mosquitos striking Berlin in late 44-45. They called it a "cookie" - the Germans called it a "vaccuum bomb", due to the concussion effects. But a max effort of B-17's was about 22 planes. A max effort of B-26's was 56 planes. The B-17's would drop 110,000 lbs on the target, the B-26's would dump 224,000 lbs on the target and did so it from a much lower altitude and with far greater accuracy. Now you figure what plane can replace the B-17 best. And it sure as hell wasn't the Mosquito. Art, no offense, but the B-26 could not strike Berlin with a 4,000 # bombload, from any altitude, from England. The Mosquito and B-17 both could. At the lower altitude that made the B-26 so accurate, it would have been slaughtered by the flak and fighters over Berlin. The fact that the B-26 was used on relatively short range missions, usually in areas where the US held near-total air supremacy, speaks volumes. The Mosquito and B-17 went hundreds of miles into the heart of the Nazi defenses at a time when no one in their right mind would think of sending a force of Marauders after the same target. I think this is getting silly - all three of these aircraft, and dozens of other types, cooperated to help overwhelm the LW. There is no need to belittle one excellent aircraft to bolster the reputation of another excellent aircraft! v/r Gordon |
#88
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#89
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"Sunny" wrote in message ... "Corey C. Jordan" wrote in message snip They seem to forget that it would take huge formations of Mosquitos to put enough bombs on a target to match that delivered by the heavies. individual Mossies could evade detection, evan small groups could be hard to locate. But, hundreds of them would be easy to detect early in their flight. That meant the Luftwaffe would be waiting high above them in strength. Without any defensive or offensive guns whatsoever, the Mosquitos would be scattered and very much chewed to pieces. Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than the B17. :-) No it couldnt a late model Mosquito with a bulged bay could carry a 4000 lb bomb load, most Mosquito's carried 2000 lb bomb loads The max load a B-17G could carry was 9,600 lbs with a more normal load being 6000 lbs Keith |
#90
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ... snip Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a bigger bomb load than the B17. :-) No it couldnt a late model Mosquito with a bulged bay could carry a 4000 lb bomb load, most Mosquito's carried 2000 lb bomb loads Quite right. The Mosquito was originally designed to carry 1000 lb (2 x 500 lb). It was quickly found that by cropping the vanes of the 500 lb bomb, they could fit four of these into the Mosquito's bomb bay, so this was the standard load of the B. Mk IV. (Some development models could also carry a 500 lb bomb under each wing, but these did not see service with the RAF.) The B Mk IX and B Mk XVI were converted from 1943 onwards with the bulged bomb bay doors which allowed them to carry one 4000 lb "Cookie" (basically a big explosive-filled drum, with no vanes or fins). The FB Mk VI could carry two of the cropped 500 lb bombs, as the forward part of the bomb bay was taken up with the 20 mm cannon breeches and ammunition feeds. They could also carry 4 rockets or one 500 lb bomb under each wing. However, since the FB versions had no bomb aimer, they could bomb only at low level. Rocket or cannons were the preferred weapons. The max load a B-17G could carry was 9,600 lbs with a more normal load being 6000 lbs Keith |
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