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Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?



 
 
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  #31  
Old January 31st 13, 02:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Munk
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Posts: 179
Default Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.


We do about 4000-5000 tuition flights a year, mostly on ASK-21s. About half
of them are ab initio. No matter how well we train people (and I'd like to
think our instructors'experience and skills are above average), we find
that there's always a time when early solo pilots (who also fly their first
solo's on the twoseaters) need just that extra safety margin. A margin that
a glider like the ASK-21 offers. And a Janus C doesn't. Keeps the student
pilot and the glider in one piece (in that order).

CAN you use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure. Would I like my club to do so?
No way. There's aircraft far better suited for that, from both a
maintenance and safety point of view. Just my two cents.

  #32  
Old February 1st 13, 05:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Munk
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Posts: 179
Default Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

hmmm, some duplicate posts here unfortunately. My apologies. Seems there's
a a two-day delay in publishing what I typed, hence the doubles...

At 13:11 31 January 2013, Eric Munk wrote:
It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.


We do about 4000-5000 tuition flights a year, mostly on ASK-21s. About

half
of them are ab initio. No matter how well we train people (and I'd like

to
think our instructors'experience and skills are above average), we find
that there's always a time when early solo pilots (who also fly their

first
solo's on the twoseaters) need just that extra safety margin. A margin

that
a glider like the ASK-21 offers. And a Janus C doesn't. Keeps the student
pilot and the glider in one piece (in that order).

CAN you use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure. Would I like my club to do so?
No way. There's aircraft far better suited for that, from both a
maintenance and safety point of view. Just my two cents.



  #33  
Old February 2nd 13, 05:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]
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Posts: 87
Default Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

On Friday, February 1, 2013 8:36:16 AM UTC-8, Eric Munk wrote:
hmmm, some duplicate posts here unfortunately. My apologies. Seems there's

a a two-day delay in publishing what I typed, hence the doubles...



At 13:11 31 January 2013, Eric Munk wrote:

It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the


quality of the instruction.




We do about 4000-5000 tuition flights a year, mostly on ASK-21s. About


half

of them are ab initio. No matter how well we train people (and I'd like


to

think our instructors'experience and skills are above average), we find


that there's always a time when early solo pilots (who also fly their


first

solo's on the twoseaters) need just that extra safety margin. A margin


that

a glider like the ASK-21 offers. And a Janus C doesn't. Keeps the student


pilot and the glider in one piece (in that order).




CAN you use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure. Would I like my club to do so?


No way. There's aircraft far better suited for that, from both a


maintenance and safety point of view. Just my two cents.






  #34  
Old February 3rd 13, 01:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gavin Short[_2_]
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Posts: 31
Default Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

Yes, my German club purchased Janus C in 2011. Apart from a protracted time
getting it registered in Germany it was nicely overhauled by our club
before being put into service. It is used as a cross country trainer (the
other club 2 seaters are 2 K-13s and a K-21).

I flew for 4 hours with an instructor wanting to get his OLC and P1 cross
country time up. I used the flight as a regional acquaint and an
introduction to flying with flaps. Later in the year I got cleared solo on
the Janus C. It has 'long legs' compared to my Standard Cirrus but once
you compensate with a suitably sized circuit and approach I was able to get
the landings spot on. later in the season I flew my buddy's DG-200 17.6 and
so I am transitioned onto single seat with flaps.

Impressions:

- Pretty roomy in the back but after 4 hours getting out was pretty painful
with cramped legs & stiff knees (I never have that problems in the Std
Cirrus, even after 6+ hours).

- Flaps become intuitive pretty quickly. If you 'change down' the flap too
quickly when pulling up into a thermal your feel the drag and quickly learn
when to change the flap setting.

- Front seat seems a little cramped. My parachute kept catching on
something when closing the canopy - I will try with another parachute next
time.

- Poor man's Duo Discus. Good performance and handling though. The
ergonomics are compromised cf a modern 2 seaters. I am sure my club would
love to a have a Duo or DG1000/1001 but could get about 6 or 8 Janus C for
the price we paid for ours.

- Tail parachute not used (fitted but tagged out for normal use).

- Air brakes seem pretty effective.

- Undercarriage mechanism not repeated in the which led to the amusing
incident 'Youthful instructor in the front after 2.5 hours flying 'Gavin we
have a problem' me: I check a/c position against airspace - no problem.
Check height 7,500 feet, wings still attached,level flight, not stalling,
not spinning - all seems OK to me 'What is the problem? Instructor: 'The
undercarriage is still down'. me. 'Well if you pull it up and you don't
tell anyone then nobody will know!.

-Mylar strips/tape on wing tips, aileron mechanism seems a little
vulnerable to hangar rash/handling in a club environment.

The Janus C is proving very popular.


Gavin
Std Cirrus, G-SCNN, #173
LSV Viersen, Keiheuvel, Belgium

  #35  
Old February 3rd 13, 10:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 16
Default Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

Well, it was in a club where we had about 10 ab-initio students per year, and the Janus was the least performing aircraft of the fleet. X-country flying was strongly encouraged, and there was no way to buy an ASK21 which you can use more or less for training only.

Over the years, we had one single incident to report (nose wheel push up during landing, would have happened with an ASK21 as well). I didn't see any difference in flight numbers to solo in resoect to other double seaters. And yes, students did use the flaps.

Over my career, I have been flying as an ab-initio instructor in the backseat of Ka7, ASK13, ASK21, SF34, Twin and Janus. Bottom line: The aircraft doesn't matter *at all*.

Le mercredi 30 janvier 2013 14:28:23 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit*:
Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it

couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for

intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure

Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.



We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare

their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and

durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An

ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need

sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the

back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give

them extra room to further find their way by experience.



Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given

properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used

safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a

no-way, I would say.


  #36  
Old February 3rd 13, 11:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:07:15 PM UTC+13, Keith wrote:
I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.

If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.


My club had a Janus A for 15 years until a couple of years ago. I have 83 flights and 72 hours in it, mostly taking friends&family for rides. The only twin I have more hours in is the DG1000 (81 hours). Other twins I've flown include 50 hours in Blanik, 20 in Grob twins, under 5 each in K21, K13, K7, Puchacz.

A lot of people in our club didn't like the Janus. I don't really understand why. Sure, it was more sensitive and less harmonized than the DG1000, but nothing that was a problem for a competent pilot, and the better performance below 50 knots and above 80 made up for it.

WIth the belly hook, sensitive elevator, and solidly mounted wheel I wouldn't want to teach takeoff/tow/landing in it if another two seater was available. Of course it would be possible. Put in in +6 flaps and leave it there and it's as easy to fly in the middle of the sky as a Grob, and with about the same performance. Use the flaps as intended and it'll match or beat a Duo or DG1000.

In our club we've now settled on a couple of DG1000s to do everything from rides/ab-initio to cross country.

If your club is big enough to have a mixed fleet then a Janus (any model) is excellent for putting solo-standard pilots into for cross country training. There are few two seaters with better performance and certainly not for less money.

They're also great for checking people out before they fly a flapped single seater.
 




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