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2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 19th 19, 04:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
US contest pilots.

The 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll is now open and will remain open through October 20, 2019. You must be on the SSA Pilot Ranking List to participate. We look forward to your input.

You can access the poll online at: http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php

Rich Owen is running unopposed for re-election to the Rules Committee. Consequently, Rich will return to his RC seat for a four-year term. Congratulations Rich!

For the SSA Contest Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair
9B


Just a reminder here. In spite of the missives being written highlighting the "incredible downsides" of a "big switch" approach to adoption of FAI rules, that IS NOT WHAT IS ON THE TABLE.

What is on the table (via the poll) is: SHOULD THE 2020 FAI CLASS NATIONALS BE TASKED AND SCORED ACCORDING TO FAI SC3A TASK DEFINITIONS AND SCORING FORMULAE AND THE RESULT EVALUATED.


I am personally a bit confounded and disappointed at the resistance to this experiment by the introduction of all the "big switch - death panel" arguments, which are at best peripheral to the immediate decision.

Record your opinion please.

QT
  #42  
Old October 19th 19, 07:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 380
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

John I guess you will have to get used to all the controversy. As is clearly reflected here and in other sites, there are deeply differing and emotional opinions regarding changing/ammending the rules. Chalk it up to american individualism. Thats something that is ingrained in our usa soaring dna.
  #43  
Old October 21st 19, 05:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Christopher Schrader[_2_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Ken, et al,

Just a thought but why not just adopt FAI Rules at National Contests only in actual FAI Classes (where racing tasks should be more vigorous and contests should contain a higher % of AT). I see no need to adopt the rules in Regional Contests and I share your concern that we need to encourage greater participation in sailplane racing, which might not happen if the SSA were to strictly adopt all FAI rules.

- Chris Schrader "CN"
  #44  
Old October 21st 19, 06:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Isn't that exactly the proposal?

How many people are actually staying out of racing because they don't Like the rules? Very few I think.
  #45  
Old October 25th 19, 06:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 351
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:11:01 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Isn't that exactly the proposal?

How many people are actually staying out of racing because they don't Like the rules? Very few I think.


Lots of people stay out of racing because they perceive it to be dangerous, citing gaggles and midair risk; because they don't want to land out a lot; because they don't have or want to bring a crew.

The main resistance to lots of AST tasking and current IGC scoring formulas is the feeling that it makes all three worse. All three are definitely worse in IGC events, and countries that follow IGC rules.

The other big objection I hear is from the OLC crowd who doesn't want to waste a lot of the day. If AST tasking leads to shorter tasks, to get everyone home, then the top pilots will be flying in even smaller slices of the day.

There is a decline in racing interest around the world. Many pilots perceive it to be a dangerous specialized tactical game that sort of involves gliders.

This isn't all about rules, but rules contribute to things that definitely discourage pilots from attending contests.

John Cochrane


  #46  
Old October 25th 19, 08:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike C
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Posts: 337
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 11:56:21 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:11:01 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Isn't that exactly the proposal?

How many people are actually staying out of racing because they don't Like the rules? Very few I think.


Lots of people stay out of racing because they perceive it to be dangerous, citing gaggles and midair risk; because they don't want to land out a lot; because they don't have or want to bring a crew.

The main resistance to lots of AST tasking and current IGC scoring formulas is the feeling that it makes all three worse. All three are definitely worse in IGC events, and countries that follow IGC rules.

The other big objection I hear is from the OLC crowd who doesn't want to waste a lot of the day. If AST tasking leads to shorter tasks, to get everyone home, then the top pilots will be flying in even smaller slices of the day.

There is a decline in racing interest around the world. Many pilots perceive it to be a dangerous specialized tactical game that sort of involves gliders.

This isn't all about rules, but rules contribute to things that definitely discourage pilots from attending contests.

John Cochrane


John,

I am not a contest pilot. I enjoy flying OLC. It requires less dedication as far a time and other resources.

Any idea how many of the accidents in the USA in the past few years happened at contests due to gaggles or other "contest environment" issues? Also, when comparing accidents in World Competition, how many accidents were there as far as percentage differences when compared to our National Contests? If IGC rules are potentially more dangerous it should show up statistically.

Thank you.

Mike Carris

  #47  
Old October 25th 19, 09:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,124
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 3:12:38 PM UTC-4, Mike C wrote:
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 11:56:21 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:11:01 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Isn't that exactly the proposal?

How many people are actually staying out of racing because they don't Like the rules? Very few I think.


Lots of people stay out of racing because they perceive it to be dangerous, citing gaggles and midair risk; because they don't want to land out a lot; because they don't have or want to bring a crew.

The main resistance to lots of AST tasking and current IGC scoring formulas is the feeling that it makes all three worse. All three are definitely worse in IGC events, and countries that follow IGC rules.

The other big objection I hear is from the OLC crowd who doesn't want to waste a lot of the day. If AST tasking leads to shorter tasks, to get everyone home, then the top pilots will be flying in even smaller slices of the day.

There is a decline in racing interest around the world. Many pilots perceive it to be a dangerous specialized tactical game that sort of involves gliders.

This isn't all about rules, but rules contribute to things that definitely discourage pilots from attending contests.

John Cochrane


John,

I am not a contest pilot. I enjoy flying OLC. It requires less dedication as far a time and other resources.

Any idea how many of the accidents in the USA in the past few years happened at contests due to gaggles or other "contest environment" issues? Also, when comparing accidents in World Competition, how many accidents were there as far as percentage differences when compared to our National Contests? If IGC rules are potentially more dangerous it should show up statistically.

Thank you.

Mike Carris


Statistics don't get to be very good with small data sets.
Quick answer without extensive research. In the Spring meeting IGC noted four fatal accidents in 10 years over 37 events.
In the US, I know of 2 fatalities in the last 10 years over about 50 events (Nationals only). One mid air and one crash for reasons not determined.
Note that John talks about perception. If we adopt rules that reduce the perception of risk, it should be favorable for participation. I don't know anyone that would suggest that a large increase in gaggle flying would not increase the risk of mid airs.
With the size of our contests, adopting IGC rules and scoring likely would have a moderate increase in gaggling- my opinion FWIW.
UH

  #48  
Old October 25th 19, 10:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike C
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Posts: 337
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 2:18:38 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 3:12:38 PM UTC-4, Mike C wrote:
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 11:56:21 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:11:01 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Isn't that exactly the proposal?

How many people are actually staying out of racing because they don't Like the rules? Very few I think.

Lots of people stay out of racing because they perceive it to be dangerous, citing gaggles and midair risk; because they don't want to land out a lot; because they don't have or want to bring a crew.

The main resistance to lots of AST tasking and current IGC scoring formulas is the feeling that it makes all three worse. All three are definitely worse in IGC events, and countries that follow IGC rules.

The other big objection I hear is from the OLC crowd who doesn't want to waste a lot of the day. If AST tasking leads to shorter tasks, to get everyone home, then the top pilots will be flying in even smaller slices of the day.

There is a decline in racing interest around the world. Many pilots perceive it to be a dangerous specialized tactical game that sort of involves gliders.

This isn't all about rules, but rules contribute to things that definitely discourage pilots from attending contests.

John Cochrane


John,

I am not a contest pilot. I enjoy flying OLC. It requires less dedication as far a time and other resources.

Any idea how many of the accidents in the USA in the past few years happened at contests due to gaggles or other "contest environment" issues? Also, when comparing accidents in World Competition, how many accidents were there as far as percentage differences when compared to our National Contests? If IGC rules are potentially more dangerous it should show up statistically.

Thank you.

Mike Carris


Statistics don't get to be very good with small data sets.
Quick answer without extensive research. In the Spring meeting IGC noted four fatal accidents in 10 years over 37 events.
In the US, I know of 2 fatalities in the last 10 years over about 50 events (Nationals only). One mid air and one crash for reasons not determined.
Note that John talks about perception. If we adopt rules that reduce the perception of risk, it should be favorable for participation. I don't know anyone that would suggest that a large increase in gaggle flying would not increase the risk of mid airs.
With the size of our contests, adopting IGC rules and scoring likely would have a moderate increase in gaggling- my opinion FWIW.
UH


Thank you Hank.

Excuse my naivety.

About rules and safety.

I don't think anyone would deny that many gliders flying in close proximity of other gliders can be dangerous. How much more dangerous are the IGC rules in contrast to the US rules, in reality though I am not clear about, especially IF larger gaggles are the result of a larger number of pilots(more participants)waiting for a start gate to open and the resulting following gaggles.

About perception, the perception of safety should be and based on fact and decided on an individual's decision weighing those facts.

You have supplied data for some accidents in the USA and World contests, but perhaps what we should take into consideration, is the total number of pilots that participated in World Championships and US National Championships in the past 10 years and of those numbers how many accidents were there statically.

Although the answers would not change my desire to fly in contests, these are questions I have in regards to the debate that is currently going on concerning safety. It would illuminate the reality of the debate for me. Perhaps I am being naive, but as a soaring pilot and supporter of contests and contest pilots, I would like to know the facts.


Regards,

Mike Carris
  #49  
Old October 26th 19, 01:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
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Posts: 269
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

John
You nailed it with your comments, those words represent my thoughts and I'm sure many others.
I dropped out of racing just before Flarm hit [ bad pun, sorry ] after two very close and scary near mid airs I experienced. And I had a new kid.
Flarm helped me get back into it at the very low level I participate in these days.
Its been beat to death the discussion of why OLC is growing and racing participation is shrinking, but its a reality; Pilots want to fly more hours into the best conditions, and that happens every OLC flight.
Thanks for writing that up!
Safe flying
T
  #50  
Old October 26th 19, 04:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 10:56:21 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 10:11:01 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
Isn't that exactly the proposal?

How many people are actually staying out of racing because they don't Like the rules? Very few I think.


Lots of people stay out of racing because they perceive it to be dangerous, citing gaggles and midair risk; because they don't want to land out a lot; because they don't have or want to bring a crew.

The main resistance to lots of AST tasking and current IGC scoring formulas is the feeling that it makes all three worse. All three are definitely worse in IGC events, and countries that follow IGC rules.

The other big objection I hear is from the OLC crowd who doesn't want to waste a lot of the day. If AST tasking leads to shorter tasks, to get everyone home, then the top pilots will be flying in even smaller slices of the day.

There is a decline in racing interest around the world. Many pilots perceive it to be a dangerous specialized tactical game that sort of involves gliders.

This isn't all about rules, but rules contribute to things that definitely discourage pilots from attending contests.

John Cochrane


Isn't the justification of racing to promote the sport and push technology? So if we (US soaring pilots) want to see our sport grow in this country why would we be adopting IGC rules and the perceived baggage, and resulting further decline in partisipation ? If memory serves right didn't the US get away from IGC due to insurance issues for contests? Thanks to all those on race and contention committees!
 




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