Near miss from space junk.

Mxsmanic wrote:

If I were to spin you round and round in your seat for a minute (I'm
sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers - and then get you to stand
up and walk twenty feet in a straight line. Can you do it?

If I have an instrument that shows me how to walk straight, yes.

I call bull**** on this one. No you can't. Yes you do have an instrument
that shows you how to walk straight: your eyeballs (we won't do the
experiment in the dark at first) looking at, say, the road or the walls
around you or other fixed objects of your choice. An NO, emphatically,
you won't be able to walk straight, or even stand up. There are actually
neat and fun devices designed to do just that: spin you around and around
for a while (there was one at Beale AFB where I did the high altitude
training, I am sure you can find something similar elsewhere)

But in reality, aircraft do not spin round and round for minutes at a time
just because they are in clouds.

Not minutes at a time, but HOURS at a time depending on how long
the flight in the clouds lasts. Not quite spinning like the fun training
device I was mentioning, but the effect is just as good; better actually.

--Sylvain

EridanMan writes:

Mastering control of the aircraft involves developing the 'conditioned
responses' you mentioned earlier. Learning to fly IFR involves
learning to adapt those conditioned responses to the IFR environment.

No, learning to fly IFR means _ignoring_ those conditioned responses, and
flying exclusively based on what the instruments say.

Furthermore, the conditioned responses vary by aircraft; learning one is not
terribly useful for another. And even the more general motion cues are
unreliable.

Ultimately, sensation is almost useless for flying. The real information
comes from visual cues (under VFR) and/or instruments (under IFR). If you
have neither of this, you're headed towards an appointment with destiny, no
matter how much practice you have with physical sensations.

Conversely, you _can_ fly without the sensations, as long as you have visual
cues and/or instruments.

And, if you have sensations _and_ visual cues _and_ instruments, the ones to
trust first are the instruments, followed by visual cues. The sensations are
not trustworthy, except to help you make coordinated turns or in a few other
very isolated circumstances.

Simply knowing what to look for on the gauges is _NOT_ enough, and I
think we would all appreciate if you would stop asserting such.

People fly safely and successfully every day just by looking at those gauges.
Nobody flies for more than a few minutes just by depending on sensations.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Sylvain writes:

I call bull**** on this one. No you can't. Yes you do have an instrument
that shows you how to walk straight: your eyeballs (we won't do the
experiment in the dark at first) looking at, say, the road or the walls
around you or other fixed objects of your choice. An NO, emphatically,
you won't be able to walk straight, or even stand up. There are actually
neat and fun devices designed to do just that: spin you around and around
for a while (there was one at Beale AFB where I did the high altitude
training, I am sure you can find something similar elsewhere)

You're probably right. I guess that rules out piloting an aircraft in an
unbraced standing position, then.

Not minutes at a time, but HOURS at a time depending on how long
the flight in the clouds lasts. Not quite spinning like the fun training
device I was mentioning, but the effect is just as good; better actually.

But you don't have to walk in an aircraft.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Mxsmanic wrote:

If I were to spin you round and round in your seat for a minute (I'm
sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers - and then get you to stand
up and walk twenty feet in a straight line. Can you do it?

If I have an instrument that shows me how to walk straight, yes.

I call bull**** on this one. No you can't. Yes you do have an instrument
that shows you how to walk straight: your eyeballs (we won't do the
experiment in the dark at first) looking at, say, the road or the walls
around you or other fixed objects of your choice. An NO, emphatically,
you won't be able to walk straight, or even stand up. There are actually
neat and fun devices designed to do just that: spin you around and around
for a while (there was one at Beale AFB where I did the high altitude
training, I am sure you can find something similar elsewhere)

But in reality, aircraft do not spin round and round for minutes at a
time
just because they are in clouds.

Not minutes at a time, but HOURS at a time depending on how long
the flight in the clouds lasts. Not quite spinning like the fun training
device I was mentioning, but the effect is just as good; better
actually.


Feel free to call bull**** on all his posts, including the one's you haven't
wasted time reading. You will still be right 99% of the time or better.

All his attendance on this post is proving, is that he still doesn't get it.
No matter what he has read, either here or anywhere else on disorientation,
he can't even understand the concept. Even with a dozen or so people, trying
to explain it a dozen different ways, his is just simply no capable of
understanding it.

Really magnifiys his ignorance on his ability to learn to fly an aircraft
through simulation doesn't it.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
news
EridanMan writes:
No, learning to fly IFR means _ignoring_ those conditioned responses, and
flying exclusively based on what the instruments say.

Furthermore, the conditioned responses vary by aircraft; learning one is
not
terribly useful for another. And even the more general motion cues are
unreliable.

Ultimately, sensation is almost useless for flying. The real information
comes from visual cues (under VFR) and/or instruments (under IFR). If you
have neither of this, you're headed towards an appointment with destiny,
no
matter how much practice you have with physical sensations.

Conversely, you _can_ fly without the sensations, as long as you have
visual
cues and/or instruments.

And, if you have sensations _and_ visual cues _and_ instruments, the ones
to
trust first are the instruments, followed by visual cues. The sensations
are
not trustworthy, except to help you make coordinated turns or in a few
other
very isolated circumstances.


People fly safely and successfully every day just by looking at those
gauges.
Nobody flies for more than a few minutes just by depending on sensations.



What a clueless troll!!!!!!

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Sylvain writes:

I call bull**** on this one. No you can't. Yes you do have an
instrument
that shows you how to walk straight: your eyeballs (we won't do the
experiment in the dark at first) looking at, say, the road or the walls
around you or other fixed objects of your choice. An NO, emphatically,
you won't be able to walk straight, or even stand up. There are
actually
neat and fun devices designed to do just that: spin you around and
around
for a while (there was one at Beale AFB where I did the high altitude
training, I am sure you can find something similar elsewhere)

You're probably right. I guess that rules out piloting an aircraft in an
unbraced standing position, then.

Not minutes at a time, but HOURS at a time depending on how long
the flight in the clouds lasts. Not quite spinning like the fun training
device I was mentioning, but the effect is just as good; better
actually.

But you don't have to walk in an aircraft.


Take your meds and get back to flying your desk.

On Apr 5, 6:04 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave Doe writes:
If I were to spin you round and round in your seat for a minute (I'm
sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers - and then get you to stand
up and walk twenty feet in a straight line. Can you do it?

If I have an instrument that shows me how to walk straight, yes.

But in reality, aircraft do not spin round and round for minutes at a time
just because they are in clouds.

If not, wny not? - you can *see* what you're meant to do!

A better experiment would be to see if I could _steer_ straight after a spin.
When you fly an aircraft, you move controls--you don't actually walk (which is
a much more complex activity). It's almost impossible to walk with disturbed
equilibrium, because the primary source of information--even with extensive
visual cues--is the inner ear. This is not true of instrument flight, where
the primary source of information is instruments, and a disturbance in
equilibrium, which disorienting, is not an absolute obstacle to maintaining
control.

It's a bit like the difference between being dizzy in a chair and being dizzy
while standing.

And PS: how's your flying on a limited panel (no A/H in particular)?

I haven't tried it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Now you're just being a cock..

"chris" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 5, 6:04 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
I haven't tried it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Now you're just being a cock..


Only now?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

In article ,
says...
Dave Doe writes:

We didn't say much to each other until Omarama - me; I was thinking long
and hard about my mistakes (Marty's flown with me on many occasions and
he's a smart guy, he knows we don't venture into clouds). At the end of
the day I concluded it was a big mistake of mine to put as much faith in
Marty as I had done - I'm a trained pilot - but Marty isn't.

Was he keeping the aircraft straight and level in IMC? Why didn't you spin
helplessly out of control in 90 seconds, the way you're supposed to whenever
you enter a cloud without an instrument rating?

Did you not read my other post (about having fun under the helmet)?
Regardless, it was nowhere near 90 seconds, more like ten. We were
reasonably level (less than 30 degrees, probably 15) when I got control.

--
Duncan

In article ,
says...
Dave Doe writes:

If I were to spin you round and round in your seat for a minute (I'm
sure there'd be no shortage of volunteers - and then get you to stand
up and walk twenty feet in a straight line. Can you do it?

If I have an instrument that shows me how to walk straight, yes.

You have eyes don't you? They work?

snip

And PS: how's your flying on a limited panel (no A/H in particular)?

I haven't tried it.

You really do need to go through the syllabus.

--
Duncan