The Superior King Tiger

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on 10 May 2004 18:25:37 GMT,
Krztalizer nt attempted to say .....


Stolen German technology was at least a century ahead of US
technology,

Now, *that's* funny...

I got a laugh out of that too. A *century*? Hell, we aren't the ones
that
started the war with horse-drawn wagons - compare our P-80 to the Me 262
and
try to fit that whole "century" in between them. Hysterical!



We also didn't END the war still using horse draw wagons for most
logistical
transport in the field.

Ah, but you have to remember, those were *German* horses, vastly superior to
anything the rest of the world could field, and were the subject of post-war
theft... I am sure Arndt will claim that were it not for German WWII
horsebreeding research, the Budweiser Clydesdales would surely look like
something along the lines of poorly fed Chincoteague ponies...

Brooks



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"According to statistics of the American army, destroying a Panther
costed five Shermans or about nine T-34's."


Does not matter,Allies could counter Germans with 14 to 1 numerical
superiority.
One Panther could kill five Shermans,includive crews but the sixth one will
kill the Panther antway.
Since Civil War "overwhelming power" means not quality but quantity in US.

arted the war with horse-drawn wagons - compare our P-80 to the Me 262 and
try to fit that whole "century" in between them. Hysterical!

As far as I know Me262 as well as V weapons were never classifed for 75 years.
(They were already known by too many in May 1945)

In article ,
(Denyav) wrote:

Since Civil War "overwhelming power" means not quality but quantity
in US.

So how's that Chechnya thing working out for you guys?

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Hell, we aren't the ones that
started the war with horse-drawn wagons - compare our P-80 to the Me 262
and
try to fit that whole "century" in between them. Hysterical!

We also didn't END the war still using horse draw wagons for most logistical
transport in the field.

That was my unwritten point - yet Den and Arnt and all of the other Big Lie
dispensers still depict the Third Reich as being capable of ridiculously
improbable feats of engineering derring-do, irregardless of the plain fact that
the war accellerated technological progress across the globe. Wartime
shortages in critical raw and rare elements affected everyone, but the Germans
most of all. Yet in the Denarnt parallel universe, only German scientists and
engineers advanced human progress during the middle 40 years of the past
century. If that is so, it speaks volumes about what happened - imagine, a
globe filled with average-thinking mundane creatures, handily defeating a
mentally superior bunch of mass-murdering drug addicted racist pigs. Who'd
have thunk it?

If they were _that_ far ahead of us, even a few years ahead (think: an all-jet
swept wing airforce, equipped with nuclear weapons), we'd be having this
conversation in German. For such a bunch of illuminated supermen, they didn't
appear to know much about basic logistics, the main reason they lost the war.
Projects that would have handily beaten the tired old mid-thirties Bf 109 were
shelved because such advances were deemed unnecessary, because that's how
deluded these cheeseheads were - but they secretly created superweapons that we
can't know about for several more decades?

I've read reams about U-234's suspicious cargo and other "nazi" urban legends -
it always surprises me when I see someone that actually believes this crap.
Next, we get to hear how Kammler's Fourth Reich is the new owner of Clear
Channel Communications, broadcasting from an ice floe near you.

Geeez

In article ,
on Mon, 10 May 2004 23:28:45 -0400,
Kevin Brooks attempted to say .....


"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on 10 May 2004 18:25:37 GMT,
Krztalizer nt attempted to say .....


Stolen German technology was at least a century ahead of US
technology,

Now, *that's* funny...

I got a laugh out of that too. A *century*? Hell, we aren't the ones
that
started the war with horse-drawn wagons - compare our P-80 to the Me 262
and
try to fit that whole "century" in between them. Hysterical!



We also didn't END the war still using horse draw wagons for most
logistical
transport in the field.

Ah, but you have to remember, those were *German* horses, vastly superior to
anything the rest of the world could field, and were the subject of post-war
theft... I am sure Arndt will claim that were it not for German WWII
horsebreeding research, the Budweiser Clydesdales would surely look like
something along the lines of poorly fed Chincoteague ponies...



I wonder if Herr Arndt knows that the mighty German horses were no match for
General Winter.



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article ,
on 11 May 2004 03:48:59 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

"According to statistics of the American army, destroying a Panther
costed five Shermans or about nine T-34's."


Does not matter,Allies could counter Germans with 14 to 1 numerical
superiority.
One Panther could kill five Shermans,includive crews but the sixth one will
kill the Panther antway.
Since Civil War "overwhelming power" means not quality but quantity in US.

Except they didn't. Most of the crews of those knocked out Shermans were in
another tank a few days later

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

From: nt (Krztalizer)

snip

Next, we get to hear how Kammler's Fourth Reich is the new owner of Clear
Channel Communications, broadcasting from an ice floe near you.

Geeez

Actually the hidden base is underground in Antarctica. One of the Nazis, I
forget whether it was den or teuton, claimed such a base exists and that it was
used as a U-boat base during WW2.

Either way it was never proven.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

It was a "disproportionatly" tall tank.

To what description of "ideal tank proportions"? Where are these proportions
laid out?

"According to statistics of the American army, destroying a Panther
costed five Shermans or about nine T-34's."

If you think its news that the Panther was a better tank, its not. The salient
point is not which is better, it is this: at the end of the war, JS, KV,
Shermans, M-26s, and Cromwells parked on top of the wreckage of the last
smoking King Tiger and Panther hulls. We won. .

Q: If you only have 45 tons of steel and the necesary chromite,
vanadium and manganese to make it into armour do you build 1.5
shermans or 1 panther?

Well, that's a little incomplete, isn't it? Add a few modifiers to that
question, such as, how many expert tank builders are required to build each,
and how many of these can effectively be fielded and supported in combat? An
individual tank's relative usefulness to its country has to take into account
its reliability, and I would take a force of Shermans over a force of Panthers
and 70% of the time, I'd win. What that translates to is that eventually, I
get to plant my flag in the middle of your garden. In a war of attritrition,
give me my 1.5 tanks over your 1.0 tanks, but remember, I get unlimited
logistics and you get a noose of steadily decreasing diameter. See, we didn't
just have that extra .5 of a tank - we had tens of thousands more, plus total
command of the air over most of our battlefields on the continent.

http://www.wargamer.com/Hosted/Panzer/pantherc.html
"The Panther became one of the finest medium tanks of WW2, with a
growing increase in the number of operational Panthers and a drop in
the number of Panthers lost. Overheating was overcome by fitting a
second cooling pump and modifying the cooling distribution. Later
Panthers proved very much more reliable than the vehicles involved in
the Kursk debacle. Many of Germany's top panzer aces achieved their
finest victories with this vehicle.

The ones that survived Kursk in their early defective Panthers...

Soldiers like SS-Oberscharfuhrer
Ernst Barkmann, who in an exposed spot with his sole Panther knocked
out nine American M4 Shermans before withdrawing, were quick to prove
the outstanding qualities of this tank.
He is not exactly a "typical" Panther commander, is he? In the right hands,
any weapon is lethal: consider the Brewster Buffalo in Finnish service.
Barkmann could have managed that particular crossroads defence in a Pzkw IV;
nothing about the encounter was dependent upon a unique Mk. V trait.
Barkmann's excellent tactical positioning and years of tank warfare experience
doomed those Shermans before they ever rounded that bend in the road. He was
the tanker equivalent of a surgeon and his accomplishments were due to his own
tactics and abilities - his Panther certainly helped. Too bad for Germany that
we had air power, eh?

According to statistics of the
American army, destroying a Panther costed five Shermans or about nine
T-34's.

But on 6 May 1945, how many operational Panthers did they have, versus how many
operational Shermans and T-34s for us..?

It was undoubtedly Germany's best tank design, giving the
almost ideal balance between armor, speed, weight and firepower."

Yep. A fine tank. Then, we overwhelmed and defeated them. End of story.

"During the Ardennes offensive several Shermans were knocked out in
the middle of the night by Panthers using IR night-scopes. After
locating US tanks with the IR scope, the Germans fired flares at the
Shermans to light the target completely, and knocked them out."

"Within two months, every German soldier that participated in this engagement
was either dead, wounded, captured, or in full retreat, having abandoned their
fancy tanks long before."

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

One Panther could kill five Shermans,includive crews but the sixth one will
kill the Panther antway.
Since Civil War "overwhelming power" means not quality but quantity in US.

The war ending B-29 was an engineering masterpiece and represented the only
true "overwhelming power" of WWII. The level of quality in a B-29 is far
beyond any other WWII warplane I have seen. And we have the production
capacity to churn out thousands. No, Den, we produced quantity AND quality -
F6F is a perfect example. The Luftwaffe loathed the Mustangs and never seemed
to denigrate its quality or its quantity. Several high ranking Nazis reported
they knew the war was lost the first time they saw Mustangs overhead.

"Look! Its hordes of poorly designed, mass produced crappy American Mustangs
shooting down our exquisitely hand-crafted Focke Wulfs! Damn them for their
logistical prowess!"

I don't think so Den.

A guy I interviewed years ago was quite animated in his descriptions of air
combat - he had kept quiet about his wartime career for decades but felt secure
in sharing his stories with me. During our meetings, I asked if he would sit
in a chair in the position he rode in the aircraft, hold his hand as if he was
holding a yoke, point at places on the instrument panel as he scanned his
gauges, etc., to see if he could recall details. He did this, his voice rising
as we went along. He talked for an hour, eyes wide and face sweating, telling
what it was like to hurl his overweight old piece of junk at Boeings and the
imminent danger from Mustangs and Jabos (that is how he referred to
Thunderbolts). During our conversation, he twitched and squirmed on his seat
and often glanced around the room or over his shoulder as he spoke, sometimes a
terse mutter or a loud outburst. By the time his wife interrupted and stopped
us, he was physically hunched into his seat as he talked with his lips cinched
down tight. He stood and showed off his scars from his burning flightsuit and
tried to express what it was like to live in terror, knowing that he was living
on borrowed time whenever the "coffin lid" closed on his fighter.

Ask a German soldier or airmen if it matters one bit whether they died due to
overwhelming quantity or overwhelming quality. In facing Americans, they got
to die doing both.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.