AN ENGINE FOR HOMEBUILDERS

Bob wrote:
On May 20, 8:11 am, "vaughn"
wrote:

Do you think that a new-build Pobjoy radial would cost any less?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. In fact, I think I said it's day had already come and gone. I
described it for those who were not familiar with it. I tend to not
re-read what I've posted (which can be dangrous at tmes) but I had the
impression that the Pobjoy was a good candidate for kitting.

But the main purpose for creating this topic was sparked by Stealth
Pilot's proposal about a universally available 40 hp engine NOT based
on VW after-market components, which I'll address in a moment. The
stated problem was that VW engines were becoming too expensive... with
the implication he was speaking with regard to Australian home-
builders. Which means the same is probably true for home-builders in
South Africa, although they seem to have a higher percentage of Type
IV engines.

What's probably needed here is a more direct link to the Brazilian VW
after-market manufacturers, especially with regard to the crankcase
and heads. Being cast iron, I assume the Australians could either
make their own jugs, or establish links to the Chinese manufacturers,
which they would need to do in any case in order to obtain VW after-
market stroker crankshafts.

As for the 'links,' I am referring to import/export agents on both
ends of the system. These 'native' agents earn their piece of the pie
by identifying manufacturers in their own countries who are producing
a product for which there is a market in a foreign country. In most
cases, all it takes is an inquiry on letter-head stationary.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting back to the real purpose of this topic -- the universally
available 40hp engine -- We have the Continental A-40 to use as a
starting point... but one I hope will be used only for that. Despite
claims to the contrary, the A-40 was NOT a very good engine, although
it's last models were better than the first versions by an order of
magnitude. Even so, there were significant aspects begging for
improvement, such as the valve train and the L-head combustion
chamber. But even as it stands -- without any improvements -- it is an
STC'd aviation power-plant and a FACSIMILE should have no trouble with
local CAA officials.

What I'd hoped to engender was discussion regarding my comments about
how an existing water-cooled in-line 4-cylinder engine could be used
to produce an engine MORE SUITABLE for use in a home-built airplane.

Unspoken here was the assumption that home-builders of the future will
be coming from India and China. I base this assumption on the mail
I've received from those countries. I've taken that as meaning we are
going to see the need for Stealth's 40hp engine... but an EFFICIENT
40hp -- an engine that can be cobbled-up by a home-builder having an
income of less than 5k U.S.dollars per year. (Adjusted for local
prices [ie China & India] that level of income has approximately 3x
the buying power. But even 15k is a pretty small amount.)

The odds are overwhelmingly in favor for the existence of a suitable
base-engine (ie, 1.8 to 2.0l) already existing in those countries.
All we need to do is to show how such an engine can be turned into the
home-made equivalent of a de Havilland. (Easy, eh? :-)

-R.S.Hoover

-PS -- I'm doing the mail as I work my way thourgh my 'morning pills,'
some of which make me silly, others of which make me want to barf...
unless taken in the proper sequence. You can almost tell where I'm at
in the 'pilling' sequence by just reading what I've written :-)

If 40 hp will do it, the new 'industrial' engines are looking really
good at this point. I follow an email list that focuses on small 4stroke
engines for a/c, & most of the discussion lately has been about these
engines. One guy is converting a vertical shaft lawn tractor motor (~32 hp).

These engines aren't at the 40 hp level yet, but it's easy to see bigger
ones coming out in the future. The nice thing about an industrial engine
is the output shaft & bearing is usually designed to take the horrendous
side loads of a reduction drive, so an a/c reduction or prop bending
load shouldn't be too much of a problem, and they are designed for
continuous output, not intermittent or varying load like most engines.

The guys at Valley Engineering seem to have found a very simple way to
make a reduction drive for these engines, and they even have one running
direct drive.

Large quantities, relatively low cost even for a new one, and great
deals as more & more show up on the used market. I like it.

Charlie

"cavelamb" wrote in message
om...
Stuart Fields wrote:
so what do I call it?

A Stuart 0320?

LycoFields 0320?

"Bob" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 8:11 am, "vaughn"
wrote:

Do you think that a new-build Pobjoy radial would cost any less?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. In fact, I think I said it's day had already come and gone. I
described it for those who were not familiar with it. I tend to not
re-read what I've posted (which can be dangrous at tmes) but I had the
impression that the Pobjoy was a good candidate for kitting.

----------much snipped---------
What I'd hoped to engender was discussion regarding my comments about
how an existing water-cooled in-line 4-cylinder engine could be used
to produce an engine MORE SUITABLE for use in a home-built airplane.

Unspoken here was the assumption that home-builders of the future will
be coming from India and China. I base this assumption on the mail
I've received from those countries. I've taken that as meaning we are
going to see the need for Stealth's 40hp engine... but an EFFICIENT
40hp -- an engine that can be cobbled-up by a home-builder having an
income of less than 5k U.S.dollars per year. (Adjusted for local
prices [ie China & India] that level of income has approximately 3x
the buying power. But even 15k is a pretty small amount.)

The odds are overwhelmingly in favor for the existence of a suitable
base-engine (ie, 1.8 to 2.0l) already existing in those countries.
All we need to do is to show how such an engine can be turned into the
home-made equivalent of a de Havilland. (Easy, eh? :-)

-R.S.Hoover

Bob,

Lots of great info as usual, and there are some additional excellent
possibilities that were imported here in the states untill very
recently--although I can not find any linkage to current useage and
availability as new engines.

One example is the Suzuki 4 cylinder 1300cc, and its 3 cylinder 1000cc
variant, used in the Suzuki Swift and Geo Metro. The 1300cc engine was
rated at 79 HP at just over 5000 rpm, and would clearly produce 40 HP at
propeller speed--or somewhat more on a sleek design that could make use of a
smaller and faster turning propeller. There have also been a number of
articles written regarding the conversion, expecially of the 3 cylinder
version, using belt reduction systems--including some using multiple
v-belts. There has been coverage at various times in Kit Planes and also in
EAA's old Experimenter magazine.

A second, and very similar, engine was a 4 cylinder 1300cc engine made by
Kia which was used in the Ford Aspire and rated at 70 HP at just over 5000
RPM. The Kia engine would be expected to produce similar torque at mid
range speeds, when compared to the Suzuki engine.

Both Suzuki and Kia, as well as Toyota and Honda, still produce similar
1600cc engines which are currently sold in compact cars here in the US.
Most are now rated at 6000 RPM or higher, although the Kia engine was
formerly rated at 90 HP and around 5000 RPM in the older Kia Rio cars.
Also, the Leon brothers used a pair of the Suzuki engines in their Coxy IV
with the coaxially driven propellers and operated (or probably still do)
their engines at 6000 RPM or a little more--using a pair of multiple v-belt
reduction units.

I have not kept up on the matter and don't have any information on how any
of theres engines may have fared in extended service; but I expect that many
or them have done quite well.

Peter

vaughn wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...
Stuart Fields wrote:
so what do I call it?
A Stuart 0320?

LycoFields 0320?



90% O320 = O288?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

vaughn wrote:
"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...

How about: http://www.rotecradialengines.com/
Ever price one of those? You could probably build a half-dozen VWs like
Bob talks about for a single Rotec....

Do you think that a new-build Pobjoy radial would cost any less?

Bob was talking VWs, and you suggested Rotecs as an alternative. I
never made one peep about Pobjoys.

Ron Wanttaja

Morgans wrote:

Thoughts?


Weight...

Power is nice, but it's always about weight.

cavelamb wrote:
Morgans wrote:

Thoughts?


Weight...

Power is nice, but it's always about weight.

....every four stroke has a 2:1 reduction drive built in.
One that's subject to really lumpy loads.
It's called the cam shaft drive. Beefing up this chain
or gear drive would be one way.....

Brian W

On Wed, 20 May 2009 11:23:33 -0700 (PDT), Bob
wrote:



Unspoken here was the assumption that home-builders of the future will
be coming from India and China. I base this assumption on the mail
I've received from those countries. I've taken that as meaning we are
going to see the need for Stealth's 40hp engine... but an EFFICIENT
40hp -- an engine that can be cobbled-up by a home-builder having an
income of less than 5k U.S.dollars per year. (Adjusted for local
prices [ie China & India] that level of income has approximately 3x
the buying power. But even 15k is a pretty small amount.)

The odds are overwhelmingly in favor for the existence of a suitable
base-engine (ie, 1.8 to 2.0l) already existing in those countries.
All we need to do is to show how such an engine can be turned into the
home-made equivalent of a de Havilland. (Easy, eh? :-)

-R.S.Hoover


the most likely engine for india is a conversion of something out of
TATA. I dont think we would see many of those engines in the west
although if the $2,000 car was marketed here and it's engine was
suitable we could probably think of it as an engine supplied in a
metal box :-)

it is an interesting conundrum because as simple as it sounds no one
markets a lightweight 40hp aero engine suitable for a single seat
aircraft. not that I'm aware of. (rotax 2 strokes I'm not interested
in)

none of the manufacturers I've looked at will supply an engine not
wrapped in a car. the smart car engine seemed a promise but in the
local distributors no one would even talk to me. ( I must have left my
top hat home that day)

all successful aircraft designs start with a successful engine.

Stealth Pilot

On Thu, 21 May 2009 00:14:10 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:



A stack of V-belts would probably be able to do for 40 HP, even with some
loss for efficiency, but you would have to start with more than 40 HP to get
close to 40 HP to the prop. That would be my last choice, since I think
that they would probably tend to get hot and wear out fairly quickly. How
many belts stacked up would it take? Six, perhaps?


I think you're a bit pessimistic there.
arent robinson helicopters and schweitzer helicopters driven by a
stack of belts to the transmission.
surely they are more than 40Hp?

On Wed, 20 May 2009 14:46:06 -0700, "Stuart Fields"
wrote:


"cavelamb" wrote in message
om...
Stuart Fields wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
...
Ron Wanttaja wrote:
bildan wrote:
On May 19, 2:52 pm, Bob wrote:
As of 2009 Amateur aircraft builders are largely limited to various
Volkswagen conversions.
How about: http://www.rotecradialengines.com/
Ever price one of those? You could probably build a half-dozen VWs
like Bob talks about for a single Rotec....

Ron Wanttaja

Yeah, maybe so.

But no VW will ever fly a Flybaby..

Be Careful there. The Rotorway helicopter uses a liquid cooled engine
that came originally from VW stock and "Claims" nearly 150hp.

I seriously doubt that Rotorway claims they are powered by a VW engine.

You are absolutely correct. However the Rotorway engine was based
originally on a liquid cooled VW. It has been greatly modified since. Point
being you can modify a VW and get enough power to fly a Fly Baby. When is
a rose not a rose? I know that I had to remove the Lycoming tag from my
0320 because of modifications but it is easy to see with the words Lycoming
on the valve covers that it isn't an Evinrude. However it is 90% Lycoming
so what do I call it?


"that's the bit called the engine. you can tell it isnt a wheel
because they're rounder." %-)