If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Convert Cherokee 140 to 180?
Our 140 is coming up on 1600 hrs TBO.
We really hate what a dog it is and would like more power. Planning ahead, we've thought of a few options: 1 - 160 hp conversion (this is almost the minimum we'd do) 2 - Powerflow exhaust (article in Plane and Pilot claims 20% power improvement - can it be combined with #1?) 3 - 180 hp conversion Anybody know about praciticalities, costs of #3 above? I know it would require extra $$ for dissimilar engine exchange, STC costs, and cowling/engine mount mods. I know that some may say sell the plane and buy a 180, but we have a plane whose condition we know, it has a pretty fresh paint job, it has all ADs complied with, and we just spent ~$7K for a panel mount GPS. We have better avionics than most and would hate to do the new buy thing and then spend a lot extra getting the plane's condition up to that of our current one. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Tim Long wrote:
1 - 160 hp conversion (this is almost the minimum we'd do) 2 - Powerflow exhaust (article in Plane and Pilot claims 20% power improvement - can it be combined with #1?) 3 - 180 hp conversion I've heard that #3 is very expensive. More than just getting an O-360 (180hp) overhauled. My 140 has both #1 and #2. I also have the full Knots2U kit, Metco wingtips, etc. It now performs fairly close (maybe a little short) to a 180's performance. Of course, this is still using it as a 1 or 2 person plane, with occasional 3rd person. Since I fly mostly alone, I never have a concern about performance, even on hot and muggy summer days. I think that #1 and #2, plus some gap seal kit is the most cost effective performance improvement. Another thing to consider adding would be the Lasar ignition system. Another topic for consideration is wheter you'll ever want to get the auto gas STC. Converting to 160hp requires 100LL, but you can get the Petersen STC, if you have the Powerflow exhaust. Apparently the stock 140 exhaust, when combined with the 160hp upgrade, doesn't qualify (the exhaust is too close to the firewall). Unfortunately, the Petersen STC costs almost $1500. The higher compression requires changes to the fuel system, including adding an additional electric pump (total of 2), in order to avoid vapor lock. So, if you ever think you'd like to burn autogas, you'd want to take this into consideration. Note that the 180hp lycoming also has the higher compression pistons, so also requires the more expensive STC (and mods) if you want to burn autogas. Also note that the use of the Lasar ignition system also disqualifies you from using autogas. For now, I'm still using 100LL. --- Jay -- __!__ Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___ http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! ! http://www.oceancityairport.com http://www.oc-adolfos.com |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Tim Long wrote: Planning ahead, we've thought of a few options: 1 - 160 hp conversion (this is almost the minimum we'd do) 2 - Powerflow exhaust (article in Plane and Pilot claims 20% power improvement - can it be combined with #1?) 3 - 180 hp conversion Anybody know about praciticalities, costs of #3 above? I know it would require extra $$ for dissimilar engine exchange, STC costs, and cowling/engine mount mods. #1 and/or #2 are not that expensive but wouldn't make the 140 into a 160. That is, it is likely that a comparable 160 would sell for more than a 140 converted to 160hp. I know that some may say sell the plane and buy a 180, but we have a plane whose condition we know, it has a pretty fresh paint job, it has all ADs complied with, and we just spent ~$7K for a panel mount GPS. We have better avionics than most and would hate to do the new buy thing and then spend a lot extra getting the plane's condition up to that of our current one. (note: I own a cheroke 140) One significant consideration is useful load. Do you just want the speed increase? There isn't any way to get a higher useful load. The Cherokee Pilot's Association had an article on a 180 conversion a long time ago. The bottomline was that the 180hp conversion was not worth it. btw - if you convert to 160hp, also re-pitch the prop so that you can gain higher cruise speed (the 160hp 140 will fly just about warrior numbers if you use warrior power settings). good luck. -- Bob Noel looking for a sig the lawyers will like |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Bob Noel wrote:
In article , Tim Long wrote: Planning ahead, we've thought of a few options: 1 - 160 hp conversion (this is almost the minimum we'd do) 2 - Powerflow exhaust (article in Plane and Pilot claims 20% power improvement - can it be combined with #1?) 3 - 180 hp conversion Anybody know about praciticalities, costs of #3 above? I know it would require extra $$ for dissimilar engine exchange, STC costs, and cowling/engine mount mods. #1 and/or #2 are not that expensive but wouldn't make the 140 into a 160. That is, it is likely that a comparable 160 would sell for more than a 140 converted to 160hp. I know that some may say sell the plane and buy a 180, but we have a plane whose condition we know, it has a pretty fresh paint job, it has all ADs complied with, and we just spent ~$7K for a panel mount GPS. We have better avionics than most and would hate to do the new buy thing and then spend a lot extra getting the plane's condition up to that of our current one. (note: I own a cheroke 140) One significant consideration is useful load. Do you just want the speed increase? There isn't any way to get a higher useful load. Interesting, my club has Warriors that have an STC raising the MGW to 2440 lbs. There isn't a similar STC for the 140? |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
I don't think there is one for the 140. That STC is based on the fact that
later Warrior II's (1982 + I believe) have that gross weight of 2440 out of the factory with the same specs. The STC (from a place at my home airport--FRG) is purely a paperwork STC--no modifications are done on the aircraft. Marco Leon "xyzzy" wrote in message ... Bob Noel wrote: In article , Tim Long wrote: Planning ahead, we've thought of a few options: 1 - 160 hp conversion (this is almost the minimum we'd do) 2 - Powerflow exhaust (article in Plane and Pilot claims 20% power improvement - can it be combined with #1?) 3 - 180 hp conversion Anybody know about praciticalities, costs of #3 above? I know it would require extra $$ for dissimilar engine exchange, STC costs, and cowling/engine mount mods. #1 and/or #2 are not that expensive but wouldn't make the 140 into a 160. That is, it is likely that a comparable 160 would sell for more than a 140 converted to 160hp. I know that some may say sell the plane and buy a 180, but we have a plane whose condition we know, it has a pretty fresh paint job, it has all ADs complied with, and we just spent ~$7K for a panel mount GPS. We have better avionics than most and would hate to do the new buy thing and then spend a lot extra getting the plane's condition up to that of our current one. (note: I own a cheroke 140) One significant consideration is useful load. Do you just want the speed increase? There isn't any way to get a higher useful load. Interesting, my club has Warriors that have an STC raising the MGW to 2440 lbs. There isn't a similar STC for the 140? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
In article , xyzzy wrote:
One significant consideration is useful load. Do you just want the speed increase? There isn't any way to get a higher useful load. Interesting, my club has Warriors that have an STC raising the MGW to 2440 lbs. There isn't a similar STC for the 140? The highest max gross weight for a 140 is 2150lbs (some early 140's had/have a max gross of 1950 lbs iirc - those can go to 2150 lbs). -- Bob Noel looking for a sig the lawyers will like |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Tim Long wrote:
Our 140 is coming up on 1600 hrs TBO. We really hate what a dog it is and would like more power. I fly warriors in a club and have been toying with the idea of buying a 140. I don't know if I'd be happy with less plane than I am flying now, but for 99% of the flying I do, a 140 would be sufficient, at least on paper. Hell, for 90% of the flying I do an Ercoupe or a Tripacer would be sufficient, but I'm not willing to go that small and limited since the 140 isn't THAT much more expensive to buy. What do you mean by a dog? Useful load, speed, what? What kind of TAS do you get in cruise? I'd be curious to hear this kind of feedback from 140 drivers, especially if they have also flown Warriors, 160s, or 180s and can give comparative experience. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Why don't you get a Warrior? There are some OK ones going for between
$30-$40K. My uncle is looking for his own. Right now he is partnering with me on my Warrior. IMHO, the Warrior is one of the better values out there. They go almost as fast (according to the Piper single Engine catalog, the difference is 1 kt!) and about 100 lbs less useful load for an average of $20-$30K cheaper than an Archer. Marco Leon N36616 "xyzzy" wrote in message ... Tim Long wrote: I fly warriors in a club and have been toying with the idea of buying a 140. I don't know if I'd be happy with less plane than I am flying now, but for 99% of the flying I do, a 140 would be sufficient, at least on paper. Hell, for 90% of the flying I do an Ercoupe or a Tripacer would be sufficient, but I'm not willing to go that small and limited since the 140 isn't THAT much more expensive to buy. What do you mean by a dog? Useful load, speed, what? What kind of TAS do you get in cruise? I'd be curious to hear this kind of feedback from 140 drivers, especially if they have also flown Warriors, 160s, or 180s and can give comparative experience. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Marco Leon wrote:
Why don't you get a Warrior? There are some OK ones going for between $30-$40K. I was lured into looking at 140s because I was looking at Air/Ercoupes and then realized that 140s with a lot more capability than Air/Ercoupes could be had for not much more than people are asking for decent Air/Ercoupes (up to mid 20's for the Alon models), with the added advantage of being a relatively standard airframe. Going up to Warrior money is a significantly bigger step. Since it's all fantasy and not likely to actually happen at this point, I can look into that too Also I fly in a club that has Warriors and is a pretty good deal, so if I bought my own I'd simply be paying more and taking all the finanical risks and responsbilities, to fly the same thing (but with sole availability to me) My uncle is looking for his own. Right now he is partnering with me on my Warrior. IMHO, the Warrior is one of the better values out there. They go almost as fast (according to the Piper single Engine catalog, the difference is 1 kt!) and about 100 lbs less useful load for an average of $20-$30K cheaper than an Archer. Funny you should mention that, my club has Warriors but has a faction that wants Archers (I doubt these debates EVER end in clubs). Those who want the Archers say they are 10-15kt faster, those who don't make the exact case you made, but they say they are 5-7kt faster, not just 1Kt faster. And of course people in both factions have flown Archers and swear by their numbers I'm inclined to agree with you, I'd rather if they were going to spend that much money that they increase the Warrior fleet size rather than upgrade the same number of planes, especially since we already have Mooneys in the feet too. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
The book says it's 1 kt faster. The determining factor is the new-style
wheel pants. I put on a set of the pants on my Warrior and I consistently go into the yellow arch (which starts at 126 kts IAS) below 2000ft MSL. Without the pants, I would agree that it's more like 7 kts difference. Your club should have a "fly-off" between both airframes to do some real-life comparisons. It would be a good reason to fly around for a day. From a strict value perspective, I think the Archer is not worth the 50% premium in purchase price over the Warrior. Marco Leon "xyzzy" wrote in message ... Marco Leon wrote: Why don't you get a Warrior? There are some OK ones going for between $30-$40K. I was lured into looking at 140s because I was looking at Air/Ercoupes and then realized that 140s with a lot more capability than Air/Ercoupes could be had for not much more than people are asking for decent Air/Ercoupes (up to mid 20's for the Alon models), with the added advantage of being a relatively standard airframe. Going up to Warrior money is a significantly bigger step. Since it's all fantasy and not likely to actually happen at this point, I can look into that too Also I fly in a club that has Warriors and is a pretty good deal, so if I bought my own I'd simply be paying more and taking all the finanical risks and responsbilities, to fly the same thing (but with sole availability to me) My uncle is looking for his own. Right now he is partnering with me on my Warrior. IMHO, the Warrior is one of the better values out there. They go almost as fast (according to the Piper single Engine catalog, the difference is 1 kt!) and about 100 lbs less useful load for an average of $20-$30K cheaper than an Archer. Funny you should mention that, my club has Warriors but has a faction that wants Archers (I doubt these debates EVER end in clubs). Those who want the Archers say they are 10-15kt faster, those who don't make the exact case you made, but they say they are 5-7kt faster, not just 1Kt faster. And of course people in both factions have flown Archers and swear by their numbers I'm inclined to agree with you, I'd rather if they were going to spend that much money that they increase the Warrior fleet size rather than upgrade the same number of planes, especially since we already have Mooneys in the feet too. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
CHEROKEE NATIONAL FLY-IN - MORE INFORMATION | Don | Owning | 0 | June 16th 04 05:14 AM |
CHEROKEE NATIONAL FLY-IN - MORE INFORMATION | Don | General Aviation | 0 | June 16th 04 05:13 AM |
Cherokee National Fly-In & Convention - THIS MONTH | Don | General Aviation | 0 | June 3rd 04 05:01 AM |
Cherokee National Fly-In & Convention | Don | Owning | 0 | March 20th 04 02:17 AM |
Cherokee National Fly-In & Convention | Don | General Aviation | 0 | March 20th 04 02:15 AM |