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Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarm and Transponders



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 20th 16, 08:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Posts: 310
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarm and Transponders

With all the discussion about FLARM, ADS-B and the Pros/Cons, I thought the time is right to bring some facts into the discussion. Last September I had a near mid air with a C421. Since I had recently equipped over the previous winter with a Mode S transponder (Trig T22), I was curious whether: 1) It was working... 2)Did the FAA use my target to call traffic.

Turned out the answer was yes! to both questions. I filed a near mid report to the FAA which resulted in two interviews and this radar ARTCC video with ATC controller audio. I think you'll find it quite interesting.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/k8ph9wogyif...1 TT.wmv?dl=0

The FAA statement incorrectly identified the twin as a King Air with only (my visual esimate)
horizontal separation estimate of 500ft.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/e6gvhn6dybx...FAA.pdf?dl =0

According to the radar we passed by at 10,000msl zero vertical and 1300ft horizontal. By pure luck and good scanning technique, I sighted the C421 15 seconds before crossing. PowerFlarm PCAS went off 2-3 seconds later. PowerFlarm would have got my attention if my visual scanning had failed me. No evasive action occurred on my part.

When you listen to the audio/video you will see a red "CA" meaning Conflict Alert going off for the controller. This went off at 33 seconds. If FAA modified their ADS-B ERAM software, they could send out ADS-B packets for aircraft on a collision course. PowerFlarm would then have given plenty of warning without cluttering the bandwidth of ADS-B with unnecessary information.. This recommendation was made to the FSDO FAA representative who interviewed me.

I am complete agreement with Darryl Ramm's analysis of this whole transponder (Mode S) PowerFlarm recommendation. They complement each other quite well... and this is the best solution for the time being. As he has said, the whole ADS-B thing with TABS looming in the near future is in a state of flux. I wouldn't be surprised to see combined Mode-S/ADS-B transponders coming onto the market in abundance within 3 or 4 years.

In case you are wondering ... I did NOT recommend in my response to the FAA NPRM immediately equipage of gliders with transponders. Instead, utilize good airspace practices, training and a short "wait and see" for more affordable equipment to become available. However, if you have the money... by all means equip with a transponder and PowerFlarm.

Walter Rogers "WX" Discus 2A
  #2  
Old January 20th 16, 08:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Posts: 310
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

I forgot one more thing... my analysis of the radar ATC video/audio:

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/xbxo0k4zlzo...s is.txt?dl=0

Walt Rogers WX
  #3  
Old January 20th 16, 11:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim White[_3_]
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Posts: 286
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarm and Transponders

At 07:24 20 January 2016, WaltWX wrote:
I forgot one more thing... my analysis of the radar ATC video/audio:

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/xbxo0k4zlzo...s is.txt?dl=0

Walt Rogers WX


Wow. To the lay man this looks just like the controller was waiting for and
watching a collision happen. You were right on track and they didn't tell
the guy to turn away. What is the point of watching the screen if you do
not take action?

Were you turning all the time? If so you should have been easy to see.

  #4  
Old January 20th 16, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Posts: 1,550
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:09:34 AM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
I had recently equipped over the previous winter with a Mode S transponder (Trig T22), I was curious whether: 1) It was working... 2)Did the FAA use my target to call traffic.

Turned out the answer was yes! to both questions.


I've a Trig T21. An ATC controller told me that I might be filtered/deleted from his display when circling or flying in wave due to my low ground speed.

Does your display on the radar have anything to do with the low traffic where you were flying or ATC knowledge of glider traffic in that area?

More generally, I'd like to have a better idea of when a Mode-S equipped glider is visible to ATC and when it is not visible.

  #5  
Old January 20th 16, 04:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:09:34 AM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
With all the discussion about FLARM, ADS-B and the Pros/Cons, I thought the time is right to bring some facts into the discussion. Last September I had a near mid air with a C421. Since I had recently equipped over the previous winter with a Mode S transponder (Trig T22), I was curious whether: 1) It was working... 2)Did the FAA use my target to call traffic.

Turned out the answer was yes! to both questions. I filed a near mid report to the FAA which resulted in two interviews and this radar ARTCC video with ATC controller audio. I think you'll find it quite interesting.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/k8ph9wogyif...1 TT.wmv?dl=0

The FAA statement incorrectly identified the twin as a King Air with only (my visual esimate)
horizontal separation estimate of 500ft.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/e6gvhn6dybx...FAA.pdf?dl =0

According to the radar we passed by at 10,000msl zero vertical and 1300ft horizontal. By pure luck and good scanning technique, I sighted the C421 15 seconds before crossing. PowerFlarm PCAS went off 2-3 seconds later. PowerFlarm would have got my attention if my visual scanning had failed me. No evasive action occurred on my part.

When you listen to the audio/video you will see a red "CA" meaning Conflict Alert going off for the controller. This went off at 33 seconds. If FAA modified their ADS-B ERAM software, they could send out ADS-B packets for aircraft on a collision course. PowerFlarm would then have given plenty of warning without cluttering the bandwidth of ADS-B with unnecessary information. This recommendation was made to the FSDO FAA representative who interviewed me.

I am complete agreement with Darryl Ramm's analysis of this whole transponder (Mode S) PowerFlarm recommendation. They complement each other quite well... and this is the best solution for the time being. As he has said, the whole ADS-B thing with TABS looming in the near future is in a state of flux. I wouldn't be surprised to see combined Mode-S/ADS-B transponders coming onto the market in abundance within 3 or 4 years.

In case you are wondering ... I did NOT recommend in my response to the FAA NPRM immediately equipage of gliders with transponders. Instead, utilize good airspace practices, training and a short "wait and see" for more affordable equipment to become available. However, if you have the money... by all means equip with a transponder and PowerFlarm.

Walter Rogers "WX" Discus 2A


Wow, sorta scary watching it and listening to what ATC did/didn't say to the other aircraft.

Curious to see if anything else develops on this.

BTW, you "may" want to hide your address/contact info in the PDF.

Oh, glad to see you're still around to discuss this.
  #6  
Old January 20th 16, 04:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Christopher Giacomo
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Posts: 45
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

The speed at which gliders typically fly is less than the normal filter for radar tracking. If you don't have a transponder, it is unlikely that they will be able to pick you up.
  #7  
Old January 20th 16, 07:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 7:14:24 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 2:09:34 AM UTC-5, WaltWX wrote:
I had recently equipped over the previous winter with a Mode S transponder (Trig T22), I was curious whether: 1) It was working... 2)Did the FAA use my target to call traffic.

Turned out the answer was yes! to both questions.


I've a Trig T21. An ATC controller told me that I might be filtered/deleted from his display when circling or flying in wave due to my low ground speed.

Does your display on the radar have anything to do with the low traffic where you were flying or ATC knowledge of glider traffic in that area?

More generally, I'd like to have a better idea of when a Mode-S equipped glider is visible to ATC and when it is not visible.


The controller was misunderstanding that you have a transponder, or badly misunderstanding how radar works. The 'velocity-doppler filter" is very important and is on primary radar not SSR/transponder returns.

Transponders are the backbone of the ATC surveillance systems, aircraft with them just don't disappear because they slow down.

For gliders without transponders you damn well bet you can disappear from primary radar, especially if the radar needs the velocity-doppler filter turned up to reduce noise, that might be to help filter ou general ground scatter, cars on freeways/highways, wind generator farms, etc. Talking to your local ATC radar facility and seeing what they can and can't see on primary radar is usually interesting, and frequently an eye opener for folks in busy areas to get a damn transponder.

A Mode S or C transponder is "visible" to ATC when you are flying within SSR coverage and the transponder is turned on and correctly working.

  #8  
Old January 20th 16, 08:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders


Walt, thanks for the great info, and thanks for following up with this with he FAA. That radar tape is frustrating to watch. Mr. Golden Eagle maybe ought to be investing in some ADS-B Out/In (and/or TCAS/TCAD) technology.

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 11:09:34 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:

When you listen to the audio/video you will see a red "CA" meaning Conflict Alert going off for the controller. This went off at 33 seconds. If FAA modified their ADS-B ERAM software, they could send out ADS-B packets for aircraft on a collision course. PowerFlarm would then have given plenty of warning without cluttering the bandwidth of ADS-B with unnecessary information. This recommendation was made to the FSDO FAA representative who interviewed me.


I'm not sure the PowerFLARM would receive this, if it is a TIS-B style message, my understanding is it would not. But yes ideally for lots of reasons the FAA would have thought all this through a decade ago and just broadcast blind TIS-B transponder traffic conflicts like this on both ADS-B links. That would likely be a useful safety improvement for lots of GA traffic.... I would hope not, but I do would not be totally surprised in the past if some factions within the FAA may have been concerned about doing that as it decreases incentives for traffic to equip with complaint ADS-B Out.

I know lots of the glider pilots who fly in your area are fantastic at working working with ATC, Joshua Approach etc. One thing that listening to that tape that maybe shows is the benefit of having a airband radio with channel monitoring listening to ATC. Now overall is that distraction worth it? Maybe, maybe not. In some hotspots I'm sure it is. If I was buying a radio now, that feature be on my want-list.

A local SF bay Area hot-spot for GA traffic is near Travis AFB where there are lots of GA traffic exiting under the SFO Class B. Travis Approach/RAPCON are usually great to work with. Listening to them give traffic advisories about gliders etc. is eye opening. There is just a lot of frigging traffic there. And they may be totally blind to any non-transponder equipped traffic (because of doppler noise from lots of wind farms near Travis AFB). and calling 'em up and requesting flight following for gliders. Oh yes and lots of USAF C-5 Galaxies flying around (all with TCAS II.. so definitely transponder material).




  #9  
Old January 21st 16, 12:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

That was very good watching, Walt. I wonder why the ATC controller did
not give the 421 a slight turn rather than simply issuing a warning of a
conflict. This also shows that it's not a bad idea to monitor Approach
and Departure frequencies when you're in or near standard routes. Glad
there was nothing more than some unnecessary excitement!

On 1/20/2016 12:09 AM, WaltWX wrote:
With all the discussion about FLARM, ADS-B and the Pros/Cons, I thought the time is right to bring some facts into the discussion. Last September I had a near mid air with a C421. Since I had recently equipped over the previous winter with a Mode S transponder (Trig T22), I was curious whether: 1) It was working... 2)Did the FAA use my target to call traffic.

Turned out the answer was yes! to both questions. I filed a near mid report to the FAA which resulted in two interviews and this radar ARTCC video with ATC controller audio. I think you'll find it quite interesting.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/k8ph9wogyif...1 TT.wmv?dl=0

The FAA statement incorrectly identified the twin as a King Air with only (my visual esimate)
horizontal separation estimate of 500ft.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/e6gvhn6dybx...FAA.pdf?dl =0

According to the radar we passed by at 10,000msl zero vertical and 1300ft horizontal. By pure luck and good scanning technique, I sighted the C421 15 seconds before crossing. PowerFlarm PCAS went off 2-3 seconds later. PowerFlarm would have got my attention if my visual scanning had failed me. No evasive action occurred on my part.

When you listen to the audio/video you will see a red "CA" meaning Conflict Alert going off for the controller. This went off at 33 seconds. If FAA modified their ADS-B ERAM software, they could send out ADS-B packets for aircraft on a collision course. PowerFlarm would then have given plenty of warning without cluttering the bandwidth of ADS-B with unnecessary information. This recommendation was made to the FSDO FAA representative who interviewed me.

I am complete agreement with Darryl Ramm's analysis of this whole transponder (Mode S) PowerFlarm recommendation. They complement each other quite well... and this is the best solution for the time being. As he has said, the whole ADS-B thing with TABS looming in the near future is in a state of flux. I wouldn't be surprised to see combined Mode-S/ADS-B transponders coming onto the market in abundance within 3 or 4 years.

In case you are wondering ... I did NOT recommend in my response to the FAA NPRM immediately equipage of gliders with transponders. Instead, utilize good airspace practices, training and a short "wait and see" for more affordable equipment to become available. However, if you have the money... by all means equip with a transponder and PowerFlarm.

Walter Rogers "WX" Discus 2A


--
Dan, 5J

  #10  
Old January 21st 16, 12:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WaltWX[_2_]
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Posts: 310
Default Case Study Near Mid Air Glider and C421 - Benefits of PowerFlarmand Transponders

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 11:10:13 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I'm not sure the PowerFLARM would receive this, if it is a TIS-B style message, my understanding is it would not. But yes ideally for lots of reasons the FAA would have thought all this through a decade ago and just broadcast blind TIS-B transponder traffic conflicts like this on both ADS-B links. That would likely be a useful safety improvement for lots of GA traffic..... I would hope not, but I do would not be totally surprised in the past if some factions within the FAA may have been concerned about doing that as it decreases incentives for traffic to equip with complaint ADS-B Out.


One argument for equipping glider with a transponder and/or ADS-B for all it's cost... would be that we get something in return... namely Collision Advisory "CA" alerts like the controllers get. Your probably right, it would likely come in the form of a TIS-B packet which is not detected by PowerFlarm at this time on both ADS-B channels. By only doing it for "CA"'s, bandwidth would not be an issue. Do you think the PowerFlarm people could easily add TIB-B and ADS-R packets?


I know lots of the glider pilots who fly in your area are fantastic at working working with ATC, Joshua Approach etc. One thing that listening to that tape that maybe shows is the benefit of having a airband radio with channel monitoring listening to ATC. Now overall is that distraction worth it? Maybe, maybe not. In some hotspots I'm sure it is. If I was buying a radio now, that feature be on my want-list.


Monitoring of local ARTCC or Approach frequencies for traffic, I've found is not worth the trouble. You know something fast and big is in the area, but do not have any idea where... just like receiving PCAS alerts.

Walt Rogers
 




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