Logging Approach Question

Tonight I was flying back to SQL GPS 30. There was a dense, 100' thick
ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL. I was
in VMC the whole time yet it probably would have been illegal
to fly in VFR as I would have been close to the clouds (see note
below about this). So even though visibility was 10nm below
the clouds, only have the airport had the ceiling and I never
passed through any clouds, I presume I can still log this
as an approach in "actual."

So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
IMC? Sounds strange but I guess you are able to do this. Same
goes passing through a broken layer.


Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything. I wouldn't be surprised
they kept hush knowing they were breaking the regulations. I
had not cancelled IFR and was on the approach and ended up doing
a 360 and climbing. I contacted approach immediately telling him
what I was doing but it could have caused a go around for a heavy
if there was an inbound a/c going into SFO. Fortunately
no one was around. Fortunately my passenger saw the traffic
as they were below me, I was in a low wing, night, with clouds
around and I wasn't expecting him.

Gerald

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 07:05:48 GMT, Gerald Sylvester
wrote:

So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
IMC?

Huh?

What definitions are you using for "actual" and "IMC"?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I wojuld say no. You made a vistual approach in VMC.

Mike
MU-2


"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Tonight I was flying back to SQL GPS 30. There was a dense, 100' thick
ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL. I was
in VMC the whole time yet it probably would have been illegal
to fly in VFR as I would have been close to the clouds (see note
below about this). So even though visibility was 10nm below
the clouds, only have the airport had the ceiling and I never
passed through any clouds, I presume I can still log this
as an approach in "actual."

So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
IMC? Sounds strange but I guess you are able to do this. Same
goes passing through a broken layer.


Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything. I wouldn't be surprised
they kept hush knowing they were breaking the regulations. I
had not cancelled IFR and was on the approach and ended up doing
a 360 and climbing. I contacted approach immediately telling him
what I was doing but it could have caused a go around for a heavy
if there was an inbound a/c going into SFO. Fortunately
no one was around. Fortunately my passenger saw the traffic
as they were below me, I was in a low wing, night, with clouds
around and I wasn't expecting him.

Gerald

Of course not. Surprised that you would ask the question.

Bob Gardner

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Tonight I was flying back to SQL GPS 30. There was a dense, 100' thick
ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL. I was
in VMC the whole time yet it probably would have been illegal
to fly in VFR as I would have been close to the clouds (see note
below about this). So even though visibility was 10nm below
the clouds, only have the airport had the ceiling and I never
passed through any clouds, I presume I can still log this
as an approach in "actual."

So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
IMC? Sounds strange but I guess you are able to do this. Same
goes passing through a broken layer.


Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything. I wouldn't be surprised
they kept hush knowing they were breaking the regulations. I
had not cancelled IFR and was on the approach and ended up doing
a 360 and climbing. I contacted approach immediately telling him
what I was doing but it could have caused a go around for a heavy
if there was an inbound a/c going into SFO. Fortunately
no one was around. Fortunately my passenger saw the traffic
as they were below me, I was in a low wing, night, with clouds
around and I wasn't expecting him.

Gerald

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:16:15 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
: So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
: IMC?

: Huh?

: What definitions are you using for "actual" and "IMC"?


I had to read the a few times. I think the distinction is "below VFR
minimums" vs. "controlling the aircraft soley by reference to instruments." There
*is* a difference... one can be flying by outside references in 1 mile, clear of
clouds. In controlled airspace this is not legal VFR conditions (SVFR, perhaps). Is
it "actual" IMC? Not really... if you're still able to control the aircraft based on
visual references.

I've never heard of logging an approach actual or simulated... just
actual/simulated *time*.

Bottom line is the distinction between operating under VFR/IFR (i.e. "flight
rules"), vs which are applicable given the flight conditions you've got. You can fly
under IFR under any conditions, but only VFR if the conditions are good enough. Also
nowhere logged (that I've seen) is IFR time... only IMC and simulated IMC time.

-Cory

Well, just to conf^H^H^H^Hclarify things more, in order to log "instrument
time", the requirement is "A person may log instrument time only for that
flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to
instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions."

Note there is no reference to IFR/VFR/IMC/VMC. Written legal opinion from
the FAA Chief Counsel has held that "actual instrument flight conditions"
exists when there something exterior to the a/c which requires that one
control the a/c solely by reference to the instruments. Hence, one can
legally log instrument flight time while operating VFR, VMC and without a
hood (the classic is a cloudy moonless night over water; although I
understand the desert can be equally disorienting).

That's why before responding to the OP, I wanted to ensure an agreement on
terminology.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Mike Rapoport wrote:
I wojuld say no. You made a vistual approach in VMC.

It was not a 'visual approach.' I required a GPS approach
but the approach kept me in VMC that was below VFR....
(500 below, 1000 feet above, etc. for each airspace).

Gerald

: What definitions are you using for "actual" and "IMC"?

I think Cory understood me better than I did. grin
sorry everyone that my flying is more precise than
my english.

I think the distinction is "below VFR
minimums" vs. "controlling the aircraft soley by reference to instruments." There
*is* a difference... one can be flying by outside references in 1 mile, clear of
clouds. In controlled airspace this is not legal VFR conditions (SVFR, perhaps).

Correct.

Is it "actual" IMC? Not really... if you're still able to control the aircraft based on
visual references.

ok. But I guess it is somewhat of a judgement call. Kind of like
flying at night with no lights on the ground and no horizon. Almost
like last night flying out of PRB.

I've never heard of logging an approach actual or simulated... just
actual/simulated *time*.

I knew that.


I remember a number of months ago there was a discussion as to what
qualifies as an approach you can log for currency. What I took from
there was that if you required the approach to get through any non-VFR
weather during the approach, then people were logging it. So
like last night, I needed that approach to get into SQL. SQL was not
VFR (despite the moron flying at tree top levels with no radio).
Nonetheless I had visual cues.

So I required the approach but I had visual cues (but was flying 90% on
my instruments expecting to have to pop through a marine layer). Can
I log this?

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message
m...

Tonight I was flying back to SQL GPS 30. There was a dense, 100' thick
ceiling covering half the airport at 800' AGL/MSL. I was
in VMC the whole time yet it probably would have been illegal
to fly in VFR as I would have been close to the clouds (see note
below about this). So even though visibility was 10nm below
the clouds, only have the airport had the ceiling and I never
passed through any clouds, I presume I can still log this
as an approach in "actual."

So can you actually log an approach in actual and never go through
IMC? Sounds strange but I guess you are able to do this. Same
goes passing through a broken layer.


Note: my passenger picked out a plane probably at about 600' flying
from PAO to SQL while I was on final. I called out on CTAF (tower
was closed) and didn't hear anything. I wouldn't be surprised
they kept hush knowing they were breaking the regulations. I
had not cancelled IFR and was on the approach and ended up doing
a 360 and climbing. I contacted approach immediately telling him
what I was doing but it could have caused a go around for a heavy
if there was an inbound a/c going into SFO. Fortunately
no one was around. Fortunately my passenger saw the traffic
as they were below me, I was in a low wing, night, with clouds
around and I wasn't expecting him.

Gerald


The way I do it is based on whether I feel it really contributed to my currency or not. E.g. if I was using
"flight by sole reference to instruments" for "most" of the time from the time I began the approach, until
after the FAF (or GS intercept), I will probably log it. There are some (including at the FAA) that believe
that you must be on "sole reference" down to the DH/MDA, but in practice I am not that conservative.

For the situation you describe I would not log the approach, mainly because there was little or no "sole
reference to instruments".

Also BTW, terminology wise I subscribe to the school of thought that what you referred to as "VMC but too close
to the clouds to fly legally VFR", is actually IMC-- even though you are flying visually!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Gerald Sylvester wrote:
Mike Rapoport wrote:
I wojuld say no. You made a vistual approach in VMC.

It was not a 'visual approach.' I required a GPS approach
but the approach kept me in VMC that was below VFR....
(500 below, 1000 feet above, etc. for each airspace).

Could you control the aircraft using outside references (only)?

Hilton

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

So I required the approach but I had visual cues (but was flying 90% on
my instruments expecting to have to pop through a marine layer). Can
I log this?

Since there is no definition on what constitutes a loggable approach, all
comments here are just opinions - here's mine. Expectation has nothing to
do with it. Could you have flown the approach visually (even if you were
just 1' from the clouds the whole way down)? I have flown numerous
instrument approaches that clearly were not in VMC, but not in the clouds
(i.e. didn't have VFR cloud clearances). I don't log those approaches. In
essence (correct me if I'm wrong), it could have been a perfectly VFR day
and you were simply head down flying the instruments - that does not
constitute a loggable instrument approach in my *opinion*.

My *opinion* is that you really must need to use the instruments to get to
the airport.

Hilton